What Is With This "Sissy" Business?

In My Humble Opinion
1

Manliness, manhood, sissies – are these people on Wife Swap for real?

It seems like every week, there’s some family who’s determined to raise their sons to be Real Men. Hence they reject painting or music or somesuch and practice manly arts like throwing axes (which Mom was doing, too, in that family - apparently women can be Real Men).

And then the Macho Mom goes to Career Mom’s house and tells her stay-at-home husband he’s a sissy. He often cries in response, which probably doesn’t help matters.

But I thought machismo went out in the '80s. Is it back?

Plus I kinda thought ALL men were Real Men. Have penis, will travel?

Except, of course, there are the ones Judge Milian chews out for taking money from women they claim to love. Those men are generally castigated for lack of manliness.

Women don’t go through this - we compete, yes, but I don’t think it’s so much about our gender identity.

Anyway, I’m wondering, guys, what is it like having this pressure to be Manly?

2

Hmm…

Good question. I’ve never felt the pressure. Then again, I tend to conform to the stereotype in a way (huge, rough, unshaven, physically strong). So does my reliance on my knowledge that I conform to a male stereotype mean that I’m actually recgonising the pressure to be manly by my declaration that I don’t feel it?

It’s enough to make my brain hurt.

Anyway, I like beer and fast cars. I also like Hello Kitty and The Girl from Ipanema.

Truth be told, I think I just don’t care anymore.

More seriously, I’m not sure the pressure for guys (especially young ones) will ever go away completely. I don’t think we’ve improved since the 80s necessarily - indeed that might have been the high water mark of enlightenment in some ways (we had Boy George then and we have gansta rap now).

3

It’s all bull; any guy who falls for it is not a Real Man, but a Real Moron.

4

I admit I’m guilty of instilling that machismo bullshit when it comes to things like fear or pain. Like learning to ride a bike and then when you fall off bike don’t cry about it just shake it off… ect… (I’m not an asshole about it. Just a friendly nudge in that direction.)
But not letting your kids indulge in arts or music? :dubious: That’s just pure stupidity.

5

fessie, you should read Self-Made Man, by Norah Vincent. “Have penis, will travel” is sort of her conception of what it means to be a man, as well. She’s a self-described butch lesbian who had always been described as rather masculine, so she decides to see how the other half lives. She spends a year and a half or so dressed as a man and “infiltrates” a variety of male-only places (bowling team, monastery, men’s group) and while some of her “revelations” aren’t really revelatory at all, in other ways, it’s kind of insightful.

My takeaway from it all is that boys learn it mainly from their fathers, either directly (as in, the father is present and teaches the son to behave that way) or indirectly (as in, the father is absent or unloving, and the son tries to emulate to earn his love). She also argues that there is group pressure from other men to conform to a non-sissy standard. Interesting book, whether or not you agree.

6

Fascinating, thanks!

7

This made me laugh very hard.

8

I wanted to throw things at the TV at that scene.

Of course, Sissy Man wasn’t helping his case any they showed him refusing to let his son play organized sports because it might be bad for him.

Basically, the only people in that episode who weren’t completely screwed up were the kids of each couple. Which is just a miracle.

9

What’s it like? I’d say it’s like, um, normal life. I think most men do things that aren’t on the approved list, but still respond to challenges. It depends on how important the person’s opinion is to me. I do it lightheartedly, but I do it and I don’t really know why. Thus, you can end up with a bit of conversation like this:

Friend (upon making a new discovery): “You can do embroidery?” (perhaps Not A Manly Thing)
Me: “Yeah, so what? Who figured out how to get your new torque converter and transmission (Very Manly Things) lined up and put together, huh? And whose engine hoist is your engine (more Very Manly Things) hanging from?”
Friend: “Well, yeah, ok.”
(both men fart and laugh to seal the pact)

The approved list obviously varies widely. When other guys give my friends and me crap about wearing safety goggles and the like when working, we just strike a heroically manly pose and declare, “Safety gear is mandatory when you’re doing Manly Things!”.

10

Why is that “machismo bullshit”? Part of life is shaking off fear or pain and getting back on the bike again.

Macho postering aside, I always associated being “manly” with things like working hard to achieve your goals, not folding under pressure, standing up for what you believe in and supporting yourself and your family. Of course these traits aren’t just confined to men.

11

fessie writes:

> Manliness, manhood, sissies – are these people on Wife Swap for real?

Have you not noticed that the people who go on reality TV shows are mostly jerks? The producers of those shows want jerks. They consider that people who react to most situations in a normal fashion are boring.

12

As a gentle soul in male skin, I passionately detest it. I’ve often answered the “If you were God for a day” question such that I would eliminate the dreadful machismo rules from all of mankind. To me, it is one of the worst plagues placed upon the world.

I honestly believe that this is a primary factor that drives males to become transgendered. The idiotic “rules” of being male and having to constantly belittle, berate, and deride “lesser” men who don’t measure up to the perceived macho standard is painfully absurd. And I believe society suffers as a result of it. The courteous and artistic boys become reclusive, because they are relentlessly mocked for enjoying the creative arts. Not only by other men, but by women who see machismo as the gauge of “real-ness” of men. I think this affects girls as well, because they get a little bit of the “you’re just a weak girl” spillover from the male pissing matches. Even overhearing one boy call another a girl as an insult must have some influence on how young girls think of themselves, their role, and what to expect from boys.

Ironically, I think heterosexual men are inherently drawn to femininity. For me, anyway, the sexiest women are those who are especially feminine. I would prefer no leather and an abundance of lace. My fantasy is to bask in the wonders of frilly, girliness. Perhaps as a reward for rescuing the princess from the evil dragon, but it’s not about “look how tough I am,” it’s more about being engulfed by the essence of a woman. But our world tells us to step on anything feminine (not just feminine men, but to treat women as objects which are to be cast aside when their “usefulness” is over).

I have always enjoyed ballet, but never participated. Anytime I see male ballet dancers, I think of them as men whose love for dancing must have been freaking relentless in order to overcome the ridicule and inevitable beatings from other men, especially during adolescence.

And I don’t enjoy the presence of guys who are hung-up on machismo. I have restored an old muscle car, and I do get mildly competitive about some things (usually artistic things, not sports), but whenever I find myself dealing with an all-male environment, I get a little uneasy because I expect the Stupid Macho Crap™ to start any second. I’m usually right.

Wanna fight about it? Nope! But I’ll cheer from the sidelines.

13

People who go on Wife Swap are picked so that the producers get to film a huge culture clash. In this way, they’ll find complete slobs and match them with clean freaks, and effeminate men matched with cave man types etc.

But then if machisimo is returning, it’s hardly surprising. Men have had a decade of being subjected to crap like “metrosexuality” (anybody who uses that term seriously needs keelhauling under the Knock Nevis. Twice.), bans on contact sports in schools etc.

14

Yeah, but if you’re a girl and you fall of the bike and you cry, people will at least give you hugs and be nice to you.

15

It makes choosing a laundry detergent frustrating as hell. For a while, I had been using Tide Free, because it doesn’t lace my clothes with the scent of lilacs or daisies or a springtime meadow or some crap. Last time I was at the store in need of a new jug of Tide, I found that the good folks at Procter & Gamble totally fucked things up. While every other girly-scented variety of Tide still comes in the trademark orange jug, Tide Free has been repackaged in a distinctive white jug emblazoned with the words “For Sensitive Skin”. My skin ain’t sensitive, and there’s no way in hell I was going through checkout looking like Mr. Sensitive Skin. I perused the other less distinctive varieties of Tide to see what my options were. It was indeed all lilacs and daisies and springtime meadows. Even their half-hearted and still rather girly mountain-scented Tide was absent; perhaps it had all been bought by other men in my situation. I ended up buying the baseline Tide with no indication of scent on the label, but it made my clothes like perfume. And not mountain perfume either.

Just yesterday that jug had finally run out. Down at the store, I faced the same choice in detergents. I bought the Tide Free so I could again smell the way I want to smell (or at least not smell the way I don’t want to smell). The male cashier who rang up my purchase didn’t give me a funny look. Perhaps he too is a bachelor who has faced the same dilemma.

16

As a gay teenager, it sucked. Really, really sucked. I was criticized for everything from the way I walked, to wearing a bracelet, to my singing voice. (My voice didn’t really change until I was about 18…funny that they didn’t mind using my as a soprano when none of the girls could hit the notes) I was encouraged to observe the behaviour of the manly men and attempt to emulate them.

Finally I moved away from home and decided I’d had enough. I was going to be who I was and if that person was somewhat more feminine in behaviour than people liked then they could fuck off. That’s not to say that I’m some screaming queen who sashays down the sidewalk saying things like “Girlfriend!”. It just means that I don’t worry if my my hips sway a bit more than a macho guys or if people call me ma’am on the phone.

I am a man who can change my own oil and knows my way around most parts of a toolbox. I’m also a man who will occasionally belt out an E over C when a song calls for it. It’s my life and I will be myself. I do not have to conform to anyone’s idea of what I should be.

17

It’s very annoying.

I’m a male who has never had any particular desire or inclination to be a Real Man or accepted as one.

A vignette: once I was at a pagan gathering that included a men’s mystery, which involved a lot of racing about, challenges, competition of various kinds – all in fun, mind, with guys encouraged to compete no matter how they thought they’d do. It was in view of choosing a ceremonial king of the gathering, sort of like a May king in a village celebration. But it just amazed me how people assumed that, being a man, I’d want to take part in this. Someone said, “Aren’t you participating in the Mystery?” I said no. They said, “Why not? Don’t you want to be king?” I said, “What for? I’m already a queen.”

It seems to me that most guys, no matter how traditionally masculine or not they may be, are very preoccupied with being accepted as A Man. And that’s very foreign to me. I’m not saying I’m somehow more enlightened or in touch with myself or whatever about this; people have the right to have their gender identities accepted as they define them. It’s just that being A Man has never held much interest for me.

A lot of time, people assume what I’d like is to be accepted as A Man despite (insert list of femmy stuff here), because Men can do those things too. Actually that’s not at all what I’d like. I’m not interested in spaces where A Man can take part in non-manly activities without his masculinity being called into question. The difference is I don’t *mind *people calling my masculinity into question; they rarely ask a question I haven’t come to on my own, anyway. Actually, if anything, I’d rather my masculinity were in question, as in question as possible; I wish people wouldn’t make assumptions that I either am, or would like to be seen/treated as being, masculine.

18

I find this really strange, to be honest. Perhaps the cashier didn’t give you a funny look because it wasn’t weird? I’m not sure I see what having sensitive skin has to do with someone judging you. Do you judge people like that?–“Oh, that loser has allergies. Moron.”? Secondly, if it really does bother you, couldn’t you just pretend that the detergent wasn’t for you? You could say you were buying it for a sensitive child/spouse/roommate. I had to use unscented detergent throughout my last two relationships, lest my clothing make my girlfriends itch.

19

Speaker, I’m pretty sure you just got wooshed.

I’m sort of in TheLoadedDog’s situation, where I’m vaguely bulky and have facial hair and such, so it hasn’t come up much for me, at least as a challenge to my sexuality or masculinity. However, I do some “unmanly” things, and have very occasionally gotten comments. Like the one dude who saw me crocheting on the T, and said something along the lines of “wow, I’ve never seen a guy do that before-- uh, not that there’s anything wrong with it, it’s just great that you do it.” I don’t think he was trying to be an ass-- more along the lines of opening your mouth to make a comment on something and then realizing that you sound kind of like an idiot.

However, I’ve had plenty of women make some remark when they see me crochet, but always either about how cool it is that I do it or wanting to know how long I’ve done it or asking me about patterns. I don’t know how those comments would have been different if I had a different outer appearance. I’m sure that if I had done it at a younger age I would have had dicks in school making some remarks. There were assholes at school who would make fun of you for anything, let alone something outside of gender norms.

I guess the other place in life that I’ve encountered machismo is in athletics, but even there I never really felt too much pressure about it. It was there, and I suppose if I had taken those sorts of things more seriously I would have found plenty of outlet for fostering machismo, but I never really did.

I feel that as a wrestler, you either have to come to terms with your sexuality, or be some sort of jock macho dickhead. Fortunately my schools didn’t really have the macho types so much, but I can see how if you’re scared of thinking about those issues that you would respond in a diametrically opposite manner. So like matt_mcl mentioned about questioning masculinity, while I didn’t (or don’t) come up against those issues like he has, I think questioning what your gender and masculinity means to you is really the only way you’ll be able to reconcile being comfortable with yourself in any situation, not just the ones that break gender stereotypes.

There are only so many ways you can address putting on spandex and grabbing another spandex-clad man’s buttcheek, y’know?

20

Um…I’ll just say that I appreciate that mental image. it will certainly make my day better. :smiley: