[QUOTE=Kimstu]
Look, I don’t agree with Trihs’s assumption that US servicepersons automatically equal murderers, and I’m not defending it.
[/QUOTE]
Good, because it is indefensible. He considers every serviceman in Iraq to be a muderer. It’s not an opinion. It’s lunacy.
Wishing death on members of the SDMB is strictly forbidden. He has done so, many times. He needs to disappear.
Well, I’m a bit cautious about posting to this thread, especially now that it’s in the Pit. You see, I have a son who is a military enlistee and he’s on his way overseas (although not, it’s looking, to Iraq), so I’m feeling a bit tender right now and, for the sake of my mental health, I think it’s better that I limit my exposure to individuals like Der Trihs. However, this:
was so nicely stated, I wanted to respond.
I’m 46 years old and have spent almost all of those years intimately connected with the military. My father is a Navy retiree and was active duty throughout my childhood. I enlisted myself, when I was 20, and served for almost 6 years. My husband retired from the Navy 4 years ago, after 26 years of service, 12 of those years as an enlisted man. And I already mentioned my son.
I have known dozens of military men and women very well; and hundreds of them casually. And really, anu-la1979’s words above should be written in letters of gold.
Our military is drawn directly from our general population. For the most part, you will find the exact same types of folk in the military that you will find outside of it. Looking back on service people I’ve known I can think of a couple of real assholes. And I can think of a couple of genuinely sterling individuals. And all the rest of them are distributed along the continuum between “Shitty People” and “Wonderful People.” Just like the non-military people I’ve known.
[QUOTE=Lemur866]
Der Trihs was wishing death on posters. Yeah, a general category of posters. But if someone said “I voted for Bush” and I replied, “I hope people who voted for Bush are killed”, then I’ve wished for them to die.
Seriously, this is pathetic. Der Trihs deserves an instaban for this.
[/QUOTE]
This is not unprecedented. A poster a long time ago (back when my politics were different, I might note) named Colinito67 said much the same thing in this thread, and I was warned for my angry response. In the following Pit thread I was told this:
A general statement “wishing death” is therefore acceptable. A statement targeted at a particular poster is not. I still think it’s a silly rule because it fools nobody, but I’ve accepted it and learned to ignore the implications of it lest I end up going batshit crazy on someone.
[QUOTE=Kimstu]
If someone said “An armed murderer is breaking into my neighbor’s house in order to shoot him” and you replied “I hope your neighbor manages to kill the intruder before the intruder kills him”, would you deserve banning?
Look, I don’t agree with Trihs’s assumption that US servicepersons automatically equal murderers, and I’m not defending it. But if he does honestly hold that opinion, then ISTM it is not particularly unreasonable or immoral for him to hope that murderers get killed by their intended victims rather than the other way around.
[/QUOTE]
This is pure sophistry. You’re saying that if I honestly believe all Republicans are murderers (because in full knowledge they voted for the murder-in-chief, Bush, who is ordering murders as we speak), then it’s not against board policy for me to advocate the murder of Republicans?
While i don’t share Der Trihs rather…apalling view i would seriously question the intentions and morality of anyone that would volunteer to fight this war now, or for the past year or so.
I agree that it’s lunacy, but it’s also an opinion.
Similarly, I think it’s lunacy when anti-abortionists claim that abortion providers are murderers. But that doesn’t mean it’s not their honest opinion.
I don’t know. Is it against board policy to hope that murderers get killed by their intended victims instead of the other way around?
Or is it against board policy to accuse a group of people of being murderers according to one’s own moral beliefs, even if they’re not legally murderers?
Because ISTM that at least one of those conditions has to be met in order to conclude that what Der Trihs said is not allowed by the board rules.
(Unless one is simply going to invoke the general “don’t be a jerk” rule, which I do think would be justified in this case, even if neither of the above conditions is true.)
How is it murder for them to kill members of the army that has conquered them ? It’s murder when an American soldier kills an Iraqi; it’s not murder when an Iraqi kills an American soldier. It’s defense of themselves and their people, not murder.
If you kill a terrorist who has taken people hostage and already killed some, is that murder ? If you kill a member of the hostage takers who hasn’t personally shot anyone, is that murder ? And if I said it was OK to kill those people and someone on the board started complaining that one of those terrorists was his brother, would calls for my banning get any sympathy ?
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]
Good, because it is indefensible. He considers every serviceman in Iraq to be a muderer. It’s not an opinion. It’s lunacy.
[/QUOTE]
No, it’s shared responsibility. Everyone there is part of the same killing machine; one way or another they all contribute.
[QUOTE=Lemur866]
Frank, Der Trihs should be banned for wishing death on other posters. We have active duty military on this board, and Der Trihs just wished for them to be killed. Ban the motherfucker already.
[/QUOTE]
From the Forum Rules:
[QUOTE=Pit Forum Rules]
Do not threaten harm or wish death on another poster
Do not threaten another poster with physical harm, or wish for their demise. This includes hypothetical statements like “it would make me happy if someone ran you over” or “I hope you say that to [someone prone to stabbing people] and they stab you”.
This does not include statements about non-posters or groups which happen to include posters (e.g. lawyers, redheads, Democrats, Republicans, SUV-owners, etc.) You can wish death on them all you want.
Obligatory caveat for the nitpickers: we’re not stupid, so if you wish death on a group in such a way that you’re clearly directing it at a poster, don’t be surprised if you get warned.
[/QUOTE]
The rule against wishing death on people is only for specific posters, not groups of people which may include posters.
As distasteful as Der Trihs is, I think it would be a mistake to react to his posts by introducing board rules to squash unpopular or stupid ideas by administrative fiat.
Well, since we’re all here to fight ignorance, I don’t really look highly upon his continuous espousal of positions that have no factual basis (All US soldiers are murderers, etc), especially after it’s been amply demonstrated that they don’t. He isn’t any different than, say, a holocaust denier, in that sense.
I don’t know whether that would be a bannable offence, per se, especially now that we pay to post, but I don’t have much use for the guy and his prescence is frankly making a mockery the “Fighting ignorance since 1973” aspect of the board.
[QUOTE=Kimstu]
I agree that it’s lunacy, but it’s also an opinion.
Similarly, I think it’s lunacy when anti-abortionists claim that abortion providers are murderers. But that doesn’t mean it’s not their honest opinion.
[/QUOTE]
It’s nonsense to state that a *lunatic *opinion is the basis for a *reasonable *extension of that opinion. You said it was “not unreasonable.” As for honest, I’ll be satisfied he is honest when I discover he states his opinion without the cover of an anonymous message board. For all you know, he’s yanking everybody’s chain.
Again, it is against board policy to wish death on SDMB members.
[QUOTE=Dinsdale]
What is your attitude towards persons who enlist in the military these days?
I traditionally considered military service worthy of considerable respect. But given the current war we are involved in, I am not certain I respect an individual’s choice to get involved in that situation.
[/QUOTE]
Not everybody joins the military just so they can go over and shoot camel-jockeys. And yes, that is (verbatim) a reason I have heard given as to why people these days join the military.
People these days join because they want to improve themselves and improve the country. My hat is off to them.
One of my cousins joined the Navy after a couple of listless years in college. Since he had a juvie record, he couldn’t immediately get on a boat, so he volunteered for a tour at Balad AFB.
I told him I thought he was an idiot. I made sure he knew that I wanted him home safe and in one peice, but there was no way in hell I was going to support his decision to go. I told him I thought he was deliberately placing himself in a position where he may have to kill or be killed. If you come across that situation on accident, you’ve got to do what you need to survive. If you do it on purpose, I find it morally repugnant.
If you go out and pick a fight, it doesn’t matter whether you win or lose - you’re still an asshole who likes to go out and pick fights. Sorry, but I can’t respect your decision.
I’m more sympathetic to servicemembers who signed up before mid-2002.
[QUOTE=DigitalC]
While i don’t share Der Trihs rather…apalling view i would seriously question the intentions and morality of anyone that would volunteer to fight this war now, or for the past year or so.
[/QUOTE]
Would you care to elaborate on that?
What motivations and morality did you ascribe to enlistees a year ago that isn’t applicable now?
[QUOTE=black rabbit]
I’m more sympathetic to servicemembers who signed up before mid-2002.
[/QUOTE]
I ask you as well, what motivations are you ascribing to the current enlistees?
[QUOTE=Giraffe]
From the Forum Rules:
The rule against wishing death on people is only for specific posters, not groups of people which may include posters.
As distasteful as Der Trihs is, I think it would be a mistake to react to his posts by introducing board rules to squash unpopular or stupid ideas by administrative fiat.
[/QUOTE]
He posts in a threads where military personnel post and wishes death on our soldiers in Iraq. If **Bricker **and I were arguing a point of law and I wished all lawyers dead would that be copacetic?
No need for administrative fiat. He is a jerk and a troll of the highest order. Calling his ideas “unpopular” is like calling the Black Plague a bit of a cough. His ideas are repulsive, insulting, inflammatory, disgusting, and insane.
So you’d rather the army be manned by people who would avoid a fight at all costs?
Ultimately, it really doesn’t matter for what reason people join the army, the US is a liberal democracy and its’ Armed Forces are beholden to the will of the lawfully elected goverment of the US. It’s YOUR fault that US troops are in Iraq, I’d really like it if Americans would stop trying to tapdance around that.
[QUOTE=Jess]
Well, I’m a bit cautious about posting to this thread, especially now that it’s in the Pit. You see, I have a son who is a military enlistee and he’s on his way overseas (although not, it’s looking, to Iraq), so I’m feeling a bit tender right now and, for the sake of my mental health, I think it’s better that I limit my exposure to individuals like Der Trihs. However, this: was so nicely stated, I wanted to respond.
I’m 46 years old and have spent almost all of those years intimately connected with the military. My father is a Navy retiree and was active duty throughout my childhood. I enlisted myself, when I was 20, and served for almost 6 years. My husband retired from the Navy 4 years ago, after 26 years of service, 12 of those years as an enlisted man. And I already mentioned my son.
I have known dozens of military men and women very well; and hundreds of them casually. And really, anu-la1979’s words above should be written in letters of gold.
Our military is drawn directly from our general population. For the most part, you will find the exact same types of folk in the military that you will find outside of it. Looking back on service people I’ve known I can think of a couple of real assholes. And I can think of a couple of genuinely sterling individuals. And all the rest of them are distributed along the continuum between “Shitty People” and “Wonderful People.” Just like the non-military people I’ve known.
[/QUOTE]
I have similar feelings.
My brother is a flight surgeon with the air force. He went to the USAF Academy and graduated back in the early 90’s. He’s career now and currently in Germany, although I understand he makes periodic trips to Iraq (but not in a combat role; he goes to pick up patients, etc.). I’ve met many of his air force buddies. They’re people like everyone else. Most are good, but a few are assholes. About the only generality I can find is that they’re all pretty fit and the men have short hair!
I feel sorry for the kids who enlist today because of the dangers they’ll face, but I don’t know enough about them to guess their motives. From what I’ve experienced, their motivations are a mixed bag.
For example, my admin’s son enlisted a while back and he’s getting shipped overseas soon (but not to Iraq). She’s devastated and didn’t want him to enlist while there was a war on. But his father served and credits it with helping him become the person he is today. His son wants to acheive the same things.
[QUOTE=Giraffe]
From the Forum Rules:
The rule against wishing death on people is only for specific posters, not groups of people which may include posters.
As distasteful as Der Trihs is, I think it would be a mistake to react to his posts by introducing board rules to squash unpopular or stupid ideas by administrative fiat.
[/QUOTE]
Plenty of rules can be applied. Blatant trolling. Premediated Being a Jerk in the First Degree. Hell, create a variant of the old “Fighting Words” doctrine. There is no legitimate reason to make a blanket statement the way he did…and has done in other threads…and probably sits moaning in lust as he strokes himself reading the shit storm he’s spawned.
I don’t think I got an official warning earlier. Maybe I did. Don’t particularly care either way. Y’all know I don’t usually go apeshit around here, and I know I prolly won’t get banned for losing my temper once in awhile. However, speaking as an admin on another forum, it is a mistake to let the person that instigated the trouble get off scott free. Sends the wrong message to the masses. You pass out slaps on the wrist for those that got provoked into crossing the line, and you drop the hammer on the guy that started it.
[QUOTE=Dinsdale]
my primary assessment of the enlistee is “What a stupid choice; what a potential waste.”
I guess I don’t appreciate the breadth of reasons why someone might want to participate in this action, as I personally consider it an utter waste of lives and money. I’m not aware of any goals that would make this sacrifice/expenditure worthwhile - to the contrary, the action seems to have been the result of opportunistic imperialism.
And I wonder what type of life someone must lead that would make them think that enlisting is the best choice available to them.
[/QUOTE]
Speaking as a member of a ‘military traditional family’ [ie, at least half of the kids of any given generation spend at least 1 hitch in the military, and more than one generally goes career - 20 years or more] I see nothing wrong with enlisting, and every military action I lose friends and family. The price of freedom IS a strong defense, which also includes the ability to go to war. My family and friends bleed so you can sit around and pity their choice.
Speaking as a person, I would love to see the US go to universal service [sometime between 18 and 21 your behind goes to boot camp and you spend one hitch in the military, or if a religious conscientious objector in something like the old CCC doing public service.] We have so many aimless kids ruining their lives because tehy are stuck in a poor neighborhood and feel they have no chance to better themselves. We have kids with absolutely nothing except a feeling of entitlement. We do not OWE anybody a free ride. We have kids who want to make something of themselves, but have no idea what is available.
If you join the military, you get a job that unless you seriously FUCK up at, you will not get fired. You have to follow a set of defined rules [the UCMJ] You have a work wardrobe and never have to decide between rags or armani - they tell you what to wear. You get housing, food [or an allowance for food and housing] training in a job that can range from infantry or military police through medical tech, computer tech, mechanic, clerk … not sure how many MOS [military occupational specialty] there actually are. When you are not working, you can take classes, there are hobby shops on many bases for auto work, wood work or metal work. You can save for further education. If you want to they have financial counselors that can help you set up a savings program towards retirement. You get a chance to see what all sorts of people do for a living that you may have never seen before. You can get stationed in foreign countries, you can get stationed all over the US. You get 30 days of paid vacation a year.
Yes you can end up in combat, but there are more military not in combat areas than are in combat areas. You can die by a shooter in McDonalds, or in a traffic accident.
Honestly? if I had not totally fucked my back up at 18 I would have gone military.
[QUOTE=Oakminster]
I don’t think I got an official warning earlier.
[/QUOTE]
You are correct; you did not. I was attempting to keep the thread appropriate for IMHO.
Should an Iraqi insurgent join the SDMB, are you prepared for posters to be banned for wishing death on Iraqi insurgents?