Under what circumstances should people enlist to fight in wars they don't support?

In the Volunteers Needed thread in the Pit, I argued that, given the apocalyptic nature of a particular claim the Bush White House recently made about the consequences of failure in Iraq, there should be substantial amounts of enlistments into the Army from groups that buy into what the White House is saying.

The point is not to revisit that here, of course, but rather to start a new thread about a side issue that’s been raised there a couple of times now.

In that thread, both Scylla and Mr. Moto have raised the issue that people who don’t support the war should be enlisting too. Scylla was talking about this war in particular; Mr. Moto was talking about wars generally. The money quotes:

That’s the question they raise. I’ll be back with my response in a bit.

First, this war: we may have gotten into it democratically, but due to our bizarre system, it is effectively the will of the President that keeps us there, in the face of a consistent antiwar majority since about September 2005, if I recall the polls correctly. So I would dismiss the notion that persons opposing this war should fight in it because it is a small-d democratic endeavor. It hasn’t been so for some time.

The reality is that it only takes a Congressional majority to authorize the President to go to war, but (barring a funds cutoff, which is functionally tricky and politically a nonstarter in this or any war) it would take a veto-proof majority of both houses to rescind that authorization. The President, with the support of a Congressional minority, can keep us at war indefinitely, and surely will.

I would not enlist, even if I could (I’m a decade or so over the maximum enlistment age; I had a draft card when we were still fighting in Vietnam), because I trust that Bush will not spend the lives of our troops at all well. He will consume them for no good reason, to no achievable end. To give him more lives, to make his war more possible, can only prolong the war and increase the cost in blood and treasure.

I can only hope that the generals will get increasingly vocal about the increasing likelihood that Bush will “break the Army,” and that this will help boost public opposition to the war to the point where Congress will act to shut it down. An abundance of volunteers would work to undermine this approach.

IMHO individual conscience trumps everything. But if your country needs you for an unpopular cause, like the over-stretched US army needs bodies now, and you are vociferous in that cause, if your conscience is telling you it is a just war and the situation is such that you are needed then you should put up or shut up.

For me?

WW1 - no way.
Spanish Civil War. I’d like to think I’d have been there. Just but doomed cause.
WW2. Certainly.
Vietnam. No way.
Iraq. No friggin’ way.
Iran and point onwards. Ditto.

Back in the Vietnam days, I received my draft card nearly a year before the peace treaty was signed. So there was a small but real possibility at the time that I might be drafted to serve in the war.

I disagreed with the war. But I also believed, and continue to believe, that we should serve our country in some manner if called. I did not seek a 4-F (physically unfit) or 1-O (conscientious objector) status, instead filing for 1-A-O (in essence, you’ll serve but won’t carry a gun; you can be a stretcher-bearer for a medevac unit or some such) status.

That was the call I made at the time, as an ignorant eighteen year old. If I were back in 1972, facing the same choice with what I know now, I would contemplate the standards for a “just war” conclude that Vietnam didn’t meet those standards, and file for 1-O on that basis.

Iraq could easily have been a Just War. Under other circumstances, led by people I trusted, with different motives and a commitment to truth, I would have been on board as I spent a lot of the 80’s protesting western support for Saddam. But not this bunch of manifest liars, incompetents and cowards with their ulterior motives.

Good point, on the different circumstances that could have been produced.

Still, individualist that I am, I have to go with individual conscience, per your earlier post. We could have waged a wonderful war of liberation for Iraq, but I’d have a hard time getting on board unless I thought my country was truly threatened by a non-liberated Iraq. I just didn’t see how that could possibly be the case, even if Saddam did have WMDs. WMDs are a dime a dozen in the world we live in, and Saddam could not have had a corner on that market. I’m not sure what circumstances, short of an actual attack on the US, would convince me to sign up.

However, even in the absence of any armed conflict, if you sign up, you sign up-- there’s no taking that back after the fact unless you are willing to suffer the consequences. Given the US’s history of poor decision making wrt military action (IMO), I’d find it hard ever to sign up until we had actually been attacked.

Not a chance in hell.

How best can I communicate my despair and outrage in the face of a leader who won’t listen to me, who has outright said that even if he hears my opinion, he doesn’t give a shit about that opinion, because he’s the Decider?

By not being one more body in a bag for him to ignore.

If we got to the point where we were in WWI where my bras underwires would be useful for making armor for our troops, I’d be out gathering Bali’s and Playtex from every woman on my street. If a Victory Garden will help spare more food for the soldiers overseas, I’d find old rain barrels to plant in. If tearing my petticoats to make bandages were needed, I’d do it in a second. If I can see a soldier in a bar or around a campfire and offer him a drink and a “thank you”, I will. (And that last one, I do.) These are meaningful ways in which my grandmothers “supported the troops” while not being in the armed forces themselves. I’m sorry that we’re not at a point of such deprivation and want that I can meaningfully pitch in like that, but apologizing for a nation’s wealth seems odd.

A sound position. Conscience-wise i’m fine with righting our own wrongs as being one of my personal criteria for a Just War and Saddam was one of our ‘wrongs’.

I think it’s bizarre, per Scylla’s premise, to think that you can dissociate “military service as a patriotic exercise” from “what the military is actually used for.” You know when you sign up, by the rules of the game, that you can be sent on whatever military errand the president wants. And by and large, over the whole sweep of our history, these military errands have made life worse for everyone involved. When you sign up, you’re willfully ignoring this fact. You’re letting somebody else do the thinking and make the moral choices for you.

I would go farther and say the patriotic thing is *not *to enlist. If no one enlisted, then George Bush could hardly have been tempted to invade Iraq. Does anyone seriously think that if he had said, “We need to start conscripting people so we can invade Iraq,” that the Congress and the American people would have gone for it?

Would you describe yourself as a pacifist, Sal?

What about Korea. Unpopular war. Overstretched Army.

You should believe in a war to fight it. To fight other peoples’ battles for them is to be a paid murderer.

Without describing myself as such, I’m probably the next closest thing. The real trouble is that I can see situations – Darfur, maybe – that could be solved with the application of military might. In the real world, though, military might is almost always used to advance the political or strategic goals of the country projecting military force. And many of these goals read as pretty indefensible from the standpoint of what’s best for everyone involved. In short, maybe what I’m looking for is a military force that represents a broader, non-national consensus – a U.N. army, maybe.

(And welcome back to the fray, by the way.)

Aren’t we one country? Isn’t this your war and mine?

It’s a difficult issue, because we clearly need to have a strong military. There are many things that we need that incur some risk to people: firefighters, police officers, construction workers… But we need lots of other things as a society as well, so some will have to do higher risk jobs while others do not.

There are circumstances when I think that the use of military force is justified, even though my first inclination wouldn’t be to sign up to carry out that particular mission myself. For instance, intervention in Darfur would be, in my opinion, a reasonable use of military force, but I haven’t shown up at my local recruiters station yet. On the flip side, I wouldn’t like to think of what might happen if people in the military were given the option of opting out of a military force in Darfur if they didn’t feel that it was a worthwhile mission.

I guess where I struggle with some measure of belief in the assertion that those who support military action should go and sign up is with those who foment wars that don’t seem to be particularly in our best interests, and those who seem to celebrate some kind of bloodlust about military action somewhere else. I recall with Desert Storm some numbnuts running around saying, “I’d fly a thousand miles to smoke a camel!” and similar braindead things. “Why haven’t you?” would be my reply.

With our Iraq adventure, there seems to be a whole contingent of people who are just super-gung ho about writing about how great it is and worthwhile it is and how we should keep at it and people who oppose it are in league with the enemy or the devil or both. This seems to take “supporting” to a whole new level, and I really don’t have too much difficulty referring to them derisively as the 101st Keyboard Commandos and some such.

Similarly, there are elected officials who wrap themselves in the flag, grow teary eyed about service members, and flop their dick out on the table very forcefully when pushing us towards military action, but who not only never served, but took evasive maneuvers when others were being called upon to serve. I don’t feel too badly thinking of them as chickenhawks. In contrast, those who actually have served generally seem a bit more deliberative when considering military force.

I also can’t honestly agree with the idea that we entered this war democratically. I know that we had a vote on the AUMF and it passed. I also know that people disagree, but I honestly believe that the concerted effort, mere weeks before the vote, to lie about the current threat presented by Iraq rendered decisions made by our elected officials less than informed consent. I also believe that the AUMF wasn’t a clear path to military force, and that the other steps were not followed by Bush prior to using military force, but I recognize that most reasonable people should have known when casting that vote that they were essentially giving up the right to complain later. That vote was a political vote, not a democratic one, and this war is a political war, not one of national interest.

Personally, I’ve said this before, but when I took those Cooter* Preference Tests, four of my top five recommendations were for the military. It sure made me think about the military as an option, but I never did serve.

So, I don’t know the clear answer. I know that I feel that we need a strong military, so if we didn’t have one, I’d feel morally obligated to do my part to make one. I know that we need leeway in terms of using military force for purposes that not everyone will agree with, so we need to ask members of the military to put themselves on the line even if they aren’t completely down with the whole program. I know that there is a spectrum of appropriate uses of military force, and the Iraq war is on the far end of it, perhaps setting a new benchmark for inappropriate use of the military, so there may be times when it is more morally appropriate to mutiny, abscond or just downright refuse.

We were lied to about the premise for the war. It is an unjust war. It is not my war, and never has been.

“My country right or wrong” is political dogma. I cannot imagine enlisting to fight an immoral war.

Yes to the first and no to the second. The first does not imply the second.

Civil disobedience has a long and cherrished history in this country as a means to affect change. “Not supporting a war” or not enlisting isn’t civil disobedience, per se, but it’s along the same lines. I think **Sal **got it exactly right-- our disfunctional Congress has made going to war all too easy. And I don’t mean this particular Congress, but the institution itself as it has allowed the president to usurp more and more of its power in the last 75 years or so.

I would enlist to fight in a war I didn’t believe in either of two cases:
In the first, I believe that the war is a bad idea but that losing would have disastrous consequences. This is the point brandied about in the linked thread. I would of course need to believe that the war was more winnable with me than without me- not much sense getting involved in a totally lost cause.
The second case in which I would enlist would be if we actually brought back the draft. I’ve considered joining the military several times. In all my vanity, I believe I would be a better soldier than the average involuntary draftee, and that my enlistment would prevent some other dude who is perhaps less competent from being shipped out against his will. Additionally, I believe (perhaps incorrectly) that I would have a better shot at choosing my job as an enlistee than as a draftee.

Sums up my attitude nicely. And to answer the OP, no, never, under no circumstances. Including “wars of national survival”, since if you don’t support that war, the logical implication is that you don’t want your country to survive, which means that fighting for it is just a little counterproductive. And no, I don’t believe that anyone has a moral obligation to be loyal to the country they live in.

No, we are not one country. We are not the Borg. And as a liberal atheist, most people in this country despise me, and certainly are not on my side; I see no reason to feel loyal to a country that loathes me. Nor do I regard the people who support or fight this war as being on my side in any way, or as anything but evil, and my enemies. I’d rather go to war against them than against foreigners.

Even if you don’t support a war you should realize that the people fighting it might not either. Some people are there because it is their job, and that particular job doesn’t let you question your orders unless they violate the Geneva or Hague conventions.

As to the OP, I don’t think you should enlist specifically to fight wars you don’t believe in. That’s like an atheist handing over his life savings to the church. On the other hand, I think the majority of soldiers enlist during peacetime under the assumption that either a) you won’t have to fight, or b) if you do it will be for a good reason. Don’t hate the soldiers who had to fight for a cause they don’t believe in; pity them. Soldiers can’t pick and choose which wars they’ll fight; they have to go when called no matter what they believe.

I forgot to add that I totally agree with nolonger lurking. But the vast majority of the time, no, it’s wrong to fight for something you don’t believe it.