[QUOTE=Mijin]
What kind of questions can we ask without logic or even rational thought?
Simply put, if we can’t use logic when discussing god then there’s nothing we can say about that concept at all.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
Then there’s nothing meaningful that can be said or even thought about the subject, and theists should remain silent. But they won’t; as Mijin said, God is only “beyond logic” when it is convenient for him to be.
[/QUOTE]
I think we’re free to challenge theists on their attempts at logic about god by asking for evidence. As shown in this thread (and many like it), they can’t stop talking about it and finding ways of being inconsistent. But boxing their god in some kind of logical framework - that’s tricky. I cannot think of a framework that would include everything. So we’re sure to exclude some possibility, no matter how remote.
So any child that is raped and dies of aids, chose to be born and be raped and die of aids because he or she was learning a lesson of some sorts? Do I have that part right?
Previously I posted a list of characteristics that I believe God must have for me to believe in him. Then discussed how God contains all the knowledge of the Universe.
I think the name God should be changed to All-That-Is. It more accurately describes the situation and leaves behind all the baggage the old word God carries.
So All-That-Is contains all the knowledge of the universe. But this knowledge keeps changing and enlarging. New knowledge to being created all the time. That is where we come in.
Let’s compare All-That-Is with a huge tree. It is a hundred feet tall and fifty feet wide. All-That-Is is All-That-Is, the whole tree while we will be compared to the leaves of this tree. Each leaf has a connection to All-That-Is and if a leaf is touched by a drop of rain All-That-Is knows this immediately. So as we work and create new knowledge All-That-Is knows this as it happens.
Because we are connected to All-That-Is we have access to all the knowledge All-That-Is has. This seems incredible but it is true. However we don’t access that knowledge because we don’t know how to access that knowledge. We defeat ourselves by our choices and actions. When someone has a NDE the connection is thrown wide open because the body no longer blocks or hampers it. Most experiencers will tell you that they had access to this knowledge.
Now remove the tree and add the universe and gather knowledge as you can.
Or perhaps when someone has an NDE, he or she is merely experiencing a very ordinary and common delusion caused by loss of oxygen to the brain. That would be an explanation in accord with other evidence, and would not necessitate the need for constructing such an elaborate web of assumptions upon assumptions, all without evidence.
To get back on topic: lekatt, is there a difference between believieving that a god exists and believing in a god? Do you think that the god you want actually exists the way you wish him/her/it to be?
I’m not sure of a definition of God that makes sense, so it’s hard to figure what kind I would follow. In any case, I’m sufficiently pliable that if there was a God and he made it clear to me that he existed, I’m confident I’d follow along.
But I do know I would NOT respect (let alone worship) a God who
requires belief but provides poor evidence
communicates poorly (has a sloppy way of spreading His word)
kills nearly everyone because things didn’t work out as hoped
condemns anyone to eternal punishment (I mean really, do the math!)
endorses slavery and calls for witches to be burnt
has a chosen people, based on birth/race
passes the onus of sins to successive generations
needs to be worshipped (I mean really … ego problems?)
burns a bush
OK, I’ll let the last one slide. I’d have probably enjoyed the fire.
A god that would make himself known, I would believe in. Simple, really.
Would I follow him?
Where?
Plus, if there is one god, there could be more. No? So if I followed him, would I be pissing off any others?
I want my God to be overprotective, overbearing, meddlesome and nagging—I want a Jewish-Mother God, complete with Yiddish accent. I want her in my head 24/7 keeping me on the straight and narrow. She’d say things like, “Oy Vey!, would it kill you to prey to me once in a while?”; “Eat…EAT! You’re skin and bones, like my boy after a week on the cross”; “What? Again with the rubbing and stroking and ohhh-ing and ahhh-ing…go out and find a nice girl before I strike you blind.” I’d like my God to smite my enemies…but not Biblical proportion type smites, with frogs and boils and locusts and such. I just want to inflict small smites, more like practical jokes, really. *“So, you want I should make toilet paper appear from the back of your boss’s pants while he walks around unaware for 40 days and 40 nights?” *
I mean both, if I believed in a God then I would know He exists and I would follow him. I don’t think God would ask me to do harmful things to myself or others, He would rather show me the way to improve my life. It would not be necessary to worship Him, just to pay attention to His lead.
No, I already did that once. In my youth I was forced to go to church and the idea that God might throw me in hell frightened me so much I quit church and never went back. A mean God is not worthy or worship.
Later with my experience I found a good God that required no worship and would never harm me no matter what I did. I am satisfied now.
