And I blame the atheists for my homophone trouble too. Their/there.
I probably should have elaborated on my thoughts in the original atheist post above. I’m assuming that this debate is focused on finding that religion which is least likely to cause upheavals in these highly turbulant times, but perhaps the better approach is to look beyond religion. But, I’m afraid, even that is overly optimistic. It’s seldom the religion itself that is the problem, but something about human nature that will pit us against each other.
“It’s seldom the religion itself that is the problem, but something about human nature that will pit us against each other.”
Oh absolutely. If there is anything that history teaches us it’s that humans will always find something to fight about. If it’s not religion it’s “race”, nationality, ideology whatever. Even if all these were uniform people would invent something else to fight over.
This is probably rooted in human pshychology as it’s evolved over the millions of years. Banding together in groups, building solidarity withing the group while expressing hatred for all those outside the group was probably a smart survival strategy in the “ancestral environment” and we have been selected accordingly. I think chimpanzees have also been known to behave similarly.
Of course we can work to overcome this evolutionary heritage. One solution is political institutions specifically built around the principles of tolerance and compromise like in most democracies. Another is economic progress which reduces the desperation of those who survive from day to day and also builds ties of commerical interdependece far beyond your particular group. And finally at an intellectual level you can develop more tolerant ideologies and more universal interpretations of the old religions.
All these things have been happening especially in the rich democracies. But even there you have bouts of group-hatred even if usually non-violent. The recent displays of anti-French hysteria in the US ,even though minor, are a case in point.
Fighting against human nature is any uphill battle but the alternative is much worse.
yeah the worst thing an extreme buddist will do is abandon their lifestyle to go live in the mountains.
I am a Baha’i. I believe it to be one of the most accepting, loving rational religions I have ever heard of. You should all check it out!! I am so thankful that I was raised as a Baha’i and cannot think of any violence associated with the faith.
or
Not all of them. I also have a photo I cut from a newspaper of Thai monks of different sects having a street brawl in Bangkok.
Wow! Great to have another Baha’i on the Boards! I’ve been the only resident Baha’i for some time now (and recently my oldest daughter joined the board, too)! Now there are three of us. Almost enough for a group!
Welcome!
Do atheists count in this debate?
The extreme form of atheism was Communism, and they killed plenty.
I’m not sure you can say communism is the extreme form of atheism. Although atheism was a part of communism, communism involved quite a bit more than that. Economic and political ideals which are connected to communism have no relationship to atheism, which only believes in the lack of existance of a god.
Someone could champion the free market and democracy and still be 100% atheist.
Yeah, I thought about the atheist/communist connection, but the violence done by communists was not done in the name of atheism. Sure, religious leaders were persecuted, but not becaused they undermined atheism, they undermined the political authority of the party.
Unitarian extremists are some of the mellowest extremists around.
Pardon my ignorance, but are Unitarians not Christians?
Well, I’m there with the Wiccans. Not too many extremists there, and within modern paganism, there are even fewer. Same’s not to be said for ancient paganism. Ancient pagan fundies were just as vile as ancient christian or muslim fundies. No matter who they quote or pray to, a fundie is still a fundie.
(remember, fundamentalisms’ middle name, is MENTAL!!)
Wicca is a MAJOR religion? I guess it depends on your defintion of “major”.
Traditionally, they have been, but modern Unitarianism doesn’t really identify itself as Christian anymore, although some Unitarians do.
That’s not a religious war. Taiping Tianguo was a rebellion against the Manchus, even though the leaders are supposedly Christians.
How was that a religious war? The leaders were supposedly Christians, but they didn’t fight against other religious groups, they didn’t impose Christian values inside the movement for the most part, and their main purpose was to overthrow the Manchus.
I’d say it is a sort of ambiguous case. They actually did intend to spread their own brand of ( very heterodox ) Christianity, at least to some extent - To whit ( a few examples from Tai Ping documents ):
*Every sergeant, in superintending marriages and funeral events in the twenty_five families, should in every case offer a eucharistic sacrifice to our Heavenly Father, the Supreme Lord and Great God; all corrupt ceremonies of former times are abolished. *
*In every circle of twenty_five families, all young boys must go to church every day, where the sergeant is to teach them to read the Old Testament and the New Testament, as well as the book of proclamations of the true ordained Sovereign. Every Sabbath the corporals must lead the men and women to the church, where the males and females are to sit in separate rows. There they will listen to sermons, sing praises, and offer sacrifices to our Heavenly Father, the Supreme Lord and Great God… *
Throughout the empire all officials must every Sabbath, according to rank and position, reverently present sacrificial animals and offerings, sacrifice and worship, and praise the Heavenly Father, the Supreme Lord and Great God. They must also expound the Holy books; should any dare to neglect this duty, they shall be reduced to husbandmen.
- Tamerlane
Zoroastrianism seems pretty laid back. They’ve traditionally been persecuted rather than persecutees, from what I can work out, but I haven’t heard of any extremism.
A friend of mine is a Parsee, and it all seems extraordinarily mellow.
They are today, but back when Zoroastrianism was the state religion of Persia, it wasn’t quite so tolerant - At least in its official capacity. Heresies like Manichaeism and Mazdakism were pretty ruthlessly rooted out. In fact the bloody Mazdak suppression was one of the major factors affecting the general exhaustion and internal weakness of the Sassanian empire on the eve of the Arab conquest. Indeed elements of Mazdakism seem to have survived into the Muslim era in such remote regions as Daylam to flavor later “heretical cults” in that region.
That’s the interesting thing about religion and religious sects - There behavior in one era can change pretty radically in another. The Nizari sect of Isma’ili Shi’ite Islam ( the so-called Assassins ), were once one of the most militant and aggressive sects in the Middle East. Now they’re one of the more apolitical and peaceful.
- Tamerlane