That’s in the “Duties” part of the job description, not the “Qualifications” part. And might I note that you are, or should be, expected to tailor your witness to the audience – the task is to show them Christ and let the Holy Spirit work within them, not to “speak your piece” with no thought for the consequences.
Whoa there, cap’n.
It sounds like there is no difference between “Christian” and “saved” to you, right? So anyone who is a “believer” (whatever that means), repents of Biblical sins, confesses his belief (whatever that means), gets baptized by immersion (no sprinkling), and never waver even to the moment of death is saved and also a Christian.
Is that right? I’m not disagreeing, I just want to make sure, because if that’s an accurate assessment, it’s the narrowest (most exclusive, maybe?) definition yet on the thread.
I remember what it was like when I was lost. At the time, I’d been a Sunday School teacher, choir member and an active member of various Episcopal churches for over a decade. Over a decade later, I continue to be one. I remember what found me – the words of the Eucharistic prayer I’d been hearing since I was baptized as an infant. I remember who said those words: the priest to whom my spiritual welfare was entrusted. I also remember what it’s like to be lambasted and accused of leading people to hell by Christians for speaking of the hope God gave me when my world was nothing but agony and despair. I will not renounce the lifetime of Christian faith and work which came before my closest experience with God, the nearest thing I know to what some Christians call “being Saved”. I am sick of hearing the assertion that unless one has a Road-to-Damascus style conversion experience one cannot be a Christian!
Excuse me.
I had intended to respond, just not quite this way. What makes someone a Christian? I’d say believing that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, fully human and fully divine, and that He died and was resurrected to atone for our sins (who “our” includes varies, depending on whom you ask) and making at least a nominal attempt to follow His teachings makes one a Christian. A fuller statement of what I consider standard Christian beliefs can be found here, in the Nicene Creed It was written in A.D. 325 to try to codify Christian belief, and there was a remarkable amount of wrangling about it, which Diogenes or Polycarp can tell you more about than I can. Among other things, one literal iota really did cause quite a stir.
While calling oneself a Christian certainly does imply one does certain things as a reflection of what one believes, I’ve found that’s not necessarily so. 
I’ve seen people who proclaim there Christian faith from the rooftops act incredibly cruel, and one of the finest, most Christian-acting people I know is a Wiccan. Even though he was baptized and born again and a devout Christian for many years, I don’t call him a “Christian” because he no longer believes in the divinity of Jesus Christ or follows His teachings.
Frankly, I’ve seen defining a Christian the way Nolies does do far more harm than good, including to me. I have friends who aren’t Christian and the whole business of proclaiming Jesus with one’s lips, rather than one’s acts and insisting that one’s prior religious experience, especially if it differs from theirs, doesn’t count for anything doesn’t give them or me any incentive whatsoever to embrace their beliefs. I’m a Christian. I’ve been going to or taken to church since I could walk. I’ve gone to Sunday School and taught it. When I was a teenager in desperate need of love and acceptance, the church I went to which never had an altar call and baptized babies in their mothers’ arms gave it to me and showed me their Christian faith in a far more profound way than anyone turning up on a message board telling me to “Repent or else!” ever did. These people weren’t born again in the sense that phrase is usually used; the way they proclaim their faith is they say the go to St. So-and-so’s. Nevertheless, collectively they are among the finest Christians I know. I owe a lot to them.
CJ
Not at all. In fact, I find that the christians in this country, on the whole, tend to want me to abandon my worldview in favor of theirs. They can define themselves whatever way they want. And they DO! That is my point. Anyone who says they’re a christian, regardless of the degree that the follow the bible or Christ’s teachings, is considered a christian. There is a vast difference between Poly, Siege, Jersey Turnpike, and Jerry Falwell…yet they are all christians. You may not like their takes on it, but that doesn’t make theirs any less “official” than anyone else’s.
That’s right. They all agree. I merely suggested that they might want to consider that there is nothing there to make that judgement in the first place.
No. But I believe that those who do believe, truly believe that there is a spirit world.
Are you saying all are saved? Believers an non-believers alike?
Will this Wiccan friend of yours be saved?
By my standards, yes, I sincerely hope so but it’s not my place to say who or isn’t. In fact, by my standards, it is the very height of arrogance to say I know who will or will not be “saved” whatever one means by that term. That is a privilege reserves solely for God.
Remember, I approach my religion from a place of pretty much non-existent self-esteem and a sense of my own worthlessness. I also grew up a perennial outsider If I say “So-and-so won’t get into heaven”, then I am doing to another the very thing which so badly damaged me. Technically, as a Christian, I am supposed to be assured of heaven. Nevertheless, because of my personal, peculiar relationship with God and the way in which I have chosen to serve Him, any time I say “So-and-so will go to hell”, I minisculely increase the chances of going there myself. “What you do to the least of my brothers, so you do also to Me.”
CJ
Rogue Episcopalian
I Am glad you have found your Peace.
Though well intentioned, your definition is also too restrictive; also tends toward exclusion and harm to the spirit; even as it satisfies yours. The way you described your Wiccan friend says that he indeed is a Christian in Spirit. Your heart knows this; your understanding, not, yet.
Spirit trumps Law.
r~
My Wiccan friend is not a Christian in the same way that I am not a German or a Buddhist, in other words, in terms of worldly affiliations. In terms of spirit, he is as fine as any I’ve known, regardless of what his nominal religion has been at the time (he’s been a Christian, and an atheist in terms of professed faith, as well as a Wiccan). Trust me. We’ve been discussing religion since we first met (frequently interlaced with “Now, I’m not trying to convert you!” at first), and I can safely say he sees this the same way I do. On the other hand, regardless of the names we hang on our particular deities, at heart, I think we’re both worshipping the same thing.
CJ
God gives to every man the desires of his heart. Each man will judge himself by God’s own standard. If a man is looking for a team captain, then that is what he shall have. The man who seeks mercy shall have mercy. Our lives on earth are all about acting out what we desire — seeking it, yearning for it, and moving toward it. If we do not seek love, then He will not impose Himself on us. But every man who seeks love will find It, and he will know when he finds It that he has found God.
I fear you would throw out the baby with the bath water.
For the time being, let us ignore what you consider speculation, and focus on what we understand to be true about the spirit.
Each of our posts contains its own spirit, a glimpse into our own Spirit. This spirit can be strident, forgiving, angry, mean, loving and so on. This spirit is contagious; a post written in an angry spirit is more likely to spread anger than one written in a loving spirit.
With this understanding, how would you characterize the Spirit of Jesus?
r~
Yeah, most do. Just as you seem to want to get them to abandon theirs. So long as everyone’s civil and respectful about it, what’s the problem?
I guess you’ve left me wondering what the purpose of the thread was. I had assumed it was a straightforward desire for Christians to discuss a theological question; your last post makes it sound like you were harboring the hope that somehow you were going to induce some sort of cognitive dissonance in someone.
I do not understand this at all; if anything that would put you even further down the scale.
I’m not talking metaphysics here, but epistemology. I was raised Baptist, and taught that believers could consciously know their eternal destiny with absolute certainty … how is the above not a contradiction of that?
And for “judgement,” in that post, I was thinking more in the “have absolute knowledge” sense, rather than the “make determination” sense (though I will confess that I am far more Calvinist than you). Am I right in assuming when you say “the universe,” you don’t include the Creator in that?
:smack: D’oh! ** Kalhoun** isn’t the OP.
The problem is that too many “Christians” are not at all civil. Their worldview gives them a “Holier than Thou” attitude.
They insist on forcing their worldview of religion and morality into government, into laws, into schools. They are even proud of that fact.
Reread the thread. It is clear that many have had their spirits harmed by these (anti-)Christians.
r~
I’m not sure what scale you’re talking about, and honestly, I usually don’t like framing my beliefs in terms of “salvation” because it is so hard to develop a coherent definition for it that even has a place in my theology. Even hell and heaven themselves are perceptions, as far as I’m concerned — one man’s hell is another man’s heaven, and so on. So it’s never been completely clear to me exactly what people are saved from.
Now, when Jesus teaches about salvation, I understand it just fine. But it usually turns out that that’s not what, say, Jimmy Swaggart means when he teaches about it. In other words, Jimmy Swaggart is one of the things that I would hope to be saved from. If salvation means that I have to spend an eternity listening to Jimmy Swaggart preach at me, then I’ll take damnation, thanks.
Jesus teaches about salvation as salvation from sin. And sin, as I see it, is the impedence of love. Love is the facilitation of goodness. Sin and love are opposites. Love facilitates goodness; sin obstructs it. But then, what is goodness? To me, goodness is not an ethic, but an aesthetic — in fact, the aesthetic that God values most.
That means that goodness can be found in the most unlikely places, at least by traditional interpretations of goodness and evil. Contrary to the Swaggart school of thought, a homosexual act, for example, would in fact be a Godly act, if one or both parties is expressing love; i.e., aesthetically valuing one another.
I hope that cleared things up a bit.
I believe that every man determines his own eternal destiny, and that God grants it to him. That is what Jesus teaches. So, in that sense, every person knows his eternal destiny with absolute certainty.
I understand you’re not talking about metaphysics. Nevertheless, I think it bears upon any epistemic consideration that existentialism is false. It is a man’s essence, and not his existence, that matters, that is real, and that is eternal. Essence precedes existence. And knowing that is to know your fate.
Right. The universe isn’t even real. It’s only atoms — nothing but a probability distribution.
“The atoms or the elementary particles are not real; they form a world of potentialities and possibilities rather than one of things or facts.” — Werner Heisenberg
“There is no quantum world. There is only an abstract quantum mechanical description.” — Niels Bohr
I am actually closer to your belief system then may be apparent here (the bit about we all worship the same thing resonates with me)…but is it because you are a Christian that you use that term to describe the goodness of your friend’s soul/spirit? Perhaps he would not like to be described in such terms.
Maybe I’m not being clear, but substitute Hindu for Wiccan in your relating of your friend’s “walking the walk”–would you describe a Hindu as being a good Christian? If I were the Hindu, that would anger me–no, I’m being a good Hindu, would be my response.
If you are using the term Christian to state that your friend espouses values such as charity, giving, tolerance, love and kindness (like a kind of shorthand)–I see no problem with that. (although others may)
But if you are stating that this friend may think and act like he’s a Wiccan, but he truly is a Christian–that’s a problem in my eyes. To me, that is saying that no other belief construct meets the standards of Christ’s example: a very “Christian” thought process, but one that would surprise me, knowing you as (slightly) as I do.
In other words, doing good deeds and loving your fellow man are exclusively Christian traits? (would that they were any religions dominant traits…).
Hope I was clear.
I guess I wasn’t clear in my question. You feel that this friend of yours is the image of what a good christian should be. But he’s Wiccan. Christians generally believe that you must believe in christ to be “saved” (I hate that word too). So, does god want us to be good, or does he want us to be christian? From your testimony, a person can be a truly, deep-down good person without being christian. But from a christian standpoint, I don’t think good Wiccans are allowed to be in heaven. At least, none of the major christian sects allow it. Maybe yours does?
That’s some pretty empty preaching, there Lib. You sound like you’re reading something off one of those churchfront marquees. Not every man finds love. There are plenty who seek it and don’t find it. There are people who are tormented all their lives – who can barely squeeze common respect out of their fellow man – let alone love! Nice try, though.