Sometimes I try to explain to people who are obviously wrong/ignorant that what they are believe in isn’t right.
Examples:
It took a year (!) to a friend of mine to realize that his active participation in
(a variation of) Amway won’t make him much money ,let alone make him rich.
I did my best, but eventually gave up,
don’t even feel like saying “I told you so” now.
Tried to explain to another guy (of very limited means) that buying a monthly bus ticket is much cheaper than paying daily bus fare ( times 4) … no luck
Yesterday somebody invited me to visit a casino.
To my suggestion to meet there at 7 pm, he replied :
NO WAY !
We must come at 4 pm because our chances of winning are much higher!
Somebody’s convinced him that casinos pay out is higher during those earlier hours to attract more people.
Now it’s an obviously ridiculous statement (suppose it’s true, which it isn’t, for slot machines, but he is going to play Black Jack… )
I mean for goodness sake…
Tried to argue otherwise … all in vain.
People I’ve mentioned aren’t complete strangers and I wish them well.
If possible (it often isn’t), I try to find the one point that illustrates the sheer lack of logic in the statement and hammer it home. In the black jack case, ask him exactly how the casino does it. The payout structure is usually printed on the table, so does he think they change the tables at 6? Does he think they use cheating techniques to give their customers better cards in the afternoon? If so, why don’t they use those same techniques to give themselves better cards instead?
That’s how I managed to convince myself of something that should be utterly obvious. For some reason, I couldn’t quite grasp that stuff cools faster in the freezer than in the fridge. I argued with myself about it until I told myself “So what you’re saying is that each substance has a ‘temperature change coefficient’ and cools down or heats up at that uniform rate?”. I had to concede the point.
Try to understand why they believe what they do. It will no doubt try your patience. But get to the point where, although you may not share their illogical belief, you at least understand why they hold it. I avoid gambling and MLM like the plague, but I can relate to bus pass guy a little. On the face of it, you can just write out an equation for him, and the greater than/less than signs should make it obvious. But I can see some reasons he may be considering, but have a hard time articulating. First, the bus pass does require having a lump sum on hand at the beginning of the month. Also, people may be willing to “lend” you daily bus fare in a way they wouldn’t lend you money toward the monthly pass. Finally, with the monthly pass, there’s generally a risk of losing it. So one of those things could be his real issue, and maybe you could help him work on it.
When you are having a conversation that you are trying to convince someone you are right and they are wrong, it is like you are pushing on opposite sides of the rock. The rock never moves. In order to make progress, you need to both be on the same side of the rock. This is true even when it is a black & white issue and you are correct.
Sometimes, and gambling and MLM are two of these in my book, it may not be worth the effort to move the rock.
there used to be a kitchen magnet/bumper sticker thing that said “may god give me the strength to change the things that I can, the patience to put up with the things that I can’t, and the wisdom to know the difference.”
for the OP : decide if you want to keep their friendship…Then keep your mouth shut, 'cause there ain’t nothing else ya can do for 'em.
(I know somebody who deeply believes the superstition about black cats. I’ve seen him stop his car and make a U-turn because a black cat ran across the road. But other than that, he’s a great person, so…
What would I do in cases like that? I’d shut up and let people do what they want.
Both your examples are based on your opinion, not hard facts. There are people who make a lot of money in Amway-type schemes; sure, it’s not the majority, but some people do. If your friend wanted to try his or her luck, why do you care?
Similarly, casinos do the most amazing things to get people in during less-than-peak hours. Blackjack might not pay out as much, but it’s also not out of the ordinary for them to throw in a free buffet or other perks to people who play during the late afternoon. It keeps them in the casino through dinner, and they will probably play an extra few games of Blackjack on the way out. I worked in casino marketing for a while, and it’s not at all untrue that you have a better chance of getting “extras” during off hours than if you come in during peak hours.
Sounds to me like you should give your friends the benefit of the doubt and don’t worry so much about convincing them of the errors of their ways.
yes and some people make it big by winning a lottery or starting a new religion, is it a reason enough to copycat their behavior ?
My friend wasn’t at the helm of MLM he was just another misinformed run of the mile victim of unethical ( fraudulent ?) marketing.
As for casino perks and freebies … it’s not what motivates my (other) friend but supposedly increased chances of winning in Black Jack during a certain time.
Even before Dale Carnegie wrote it down long ago, it was true. Being right in an argument is not as good as not having the argument. Correcting your friends’ mistakes are less important than having friends.
Folks do foolish things. Even you. Even I (or is that me?) When a friend eventually figures out that he was a patsy for a pyramid scam, he will look back at you, who tried to tell him that, with deep resentment. When another friend thinks he knows the secret of beating the odds that guarantee the casino will win, no good will come of shining light on reality.
I have a couple of things to say on such occasions. They sound encouraging, but they really mean, “You’re dreaming!”
Imagine that!
Fantastic!
**AskNott **
I’m with you on that.That’s what I usually do.
Occasionally,though it feels like …too much
I know the facts, I want to help, I’ve got the best intentions…
but there is no appreciation and it hurts…
well I would probably have to live with that…
It takes me about fifteen hours and a half per day to live my life. The other eight and a half I must balance between snoring and living other people’s lives. Offer your two cents (or more but only if asked) and let them live their lives. Be there for them if they fail for not listening to you or if they succeed despite not having listened to you.
I was going to make the same points about the bus pass. A person of very limited means often has to live from day to day.
Once upon a time when I was an impecunious college student, a friend took me to the grocery store where I purchased a small box of laundry detergent. My friend said, “You’ll save money in the long run if you buy the large box of detergent.” I replied, “But I only have $20. I have to make it stretch.” She frowned.
Our financial circumstances differed. I was working 3 part-time jobs to stay afloat. My friend’s father handed her cash every time she went home to visit, and her mother insisted she gather up whatever she needed from the pantry. I am sure that my very intelligent friend saw my logic, but I don’t think she was happy about it, because she had to be right all the time. I could almost see the wheels of her mind turning, trying to come up with a counter-argument why I should have bought the larger box.
Does the area you live in have bus tokens, justqwerty? Mine did, and when I took the bus a lot, I found them easier to deal with than a monthly bus pass. They were cheaper, you could buy them in bags of 10, so you could have extras in case of a lean week, and they didn’t expire. (Unlike bus passes.)
Appriciation for what, exactly? All you’ve done is be smarter than them–you haven’t given up anything for them, you haven’t suffered for them, you haven’t gone to any trouble for them–all you’ve done is better understood the world than they have. Why on earth should they be appreciative of that? They might learn from you, but there’s no call to be grateful.
**Flipstrip **
no, there are no tokens,
as for having a “lump sum” … it’s about money management
all he needs is to safe some money ONCE and then use money (saved by not paying daily bus fare) to buy the next month pass.
He could save this money himself, he could borrow this money from somebody.
I would have gladly lent him this amount had he asked, but he was adamant that it wasn’t good idea so I didn’t insist.
**Manda JO **
how about…
appreciation for my attempt to explain them that their reasoning is wrong,
appreciation for my honest wish to make their life a bit easier ( saving on bus fare),
appreciation for trying to explain that mlm wouldn’t work, so he won’t waste energy,time and money.
am I expecting to much?
Yep. Because you aren’t really doing anything nice for them. It takes less than that for you to get up and walk across the room to get them a soda.
Look, I like to tell people how to run their lives. That’s why I became a high school teacher–it’s one of the few occupations that makes that sort of condencending relationship legitimate. But I don’t expect to be appriciated. It’s the joy of doing it that motivates me.
Now, I will cop to the fact that I like to be admired for my wisdom. But I recognize that this is a selfish sort of desire and not really anyone else’s obligation to satisfy. So I just enjoy it when it comes along and try very hard not to resent it when it’s not forthcoming.
yes I have, I searched the net and emailed the guy a few mlm related links about pyramid schemes" and the likes,
I even found an article in my friend’s native language.
All I wanted was for him to think for himself, which he probably did
but decided to proceed anyway.
Are you saying my behavior was wrong and I didn’t deserve even a thank you ?
Those are two different questions. Your behavior wasn’t wrong, but expecting a thank you is bit much–I would guess it was rooted as much in a desire to prove yourself right as it was in a desire to help someone else. If what you want from people is thanks, give them what they want, not what you think they need.
but using your own words :
**It takes less than that for you to get up and walk across the room to get them a soda. **
now
**it was rooted as much in a desire to prove yourself right **
I’m a cynic myself and could argue that your desire to make a buck is your REAL motivation in teaching so you are probably correct in not expecting any appreciation, Right ?
We do appreciate certain behavior regardless of the person’s motivation.
safe [should be save] some money ONCE and then use money (saved by not paying daily bus fare) to buy the next month [should be month’s]pass.
He could save this money himself,[use or instead of a comma] he could borrow this money from somebody.
I would have gladly lent him this amount had he asked, but he was adamant that it wasn’t good [should be a good] idea idea so I didn’t insist.
am I expecting to much?[should be too]
There, I helped you. Are you feeling appreciative?
People don’t like to feel stupid. They like even less to feel dumber than their friends. A study not so long ago demonstrated what is evident when you deal with actual humans ever - that most people make decisions based on feelings rather than logic.
You can try, gently, to help someone out but if they refuse to be helped, you’ve no option but to let whatever is about to happen happen.
I am confused. You seem to think I am contradicting myself. If you enjoy provong yourself right nad other people wrong and showing them the error of their ways, keep doing it. But don’t think of it as a sacrifice, as a favor, as something that means you “deserve” thanks. Do it because you like it.
And I am a teacher because I enjoy being right and showing others the error of their ways, and I don’t expect appreciation. I like it when I get it, but I don’t think I deserve it. I am curious as to why you think you do deserve it.
actually I do
English isn’t my native language, yes it’s embarrassing to make those stupid grammar errors, but I try to do my best.
No I don’t feel stupid ,I learn from my mistakes.
I agree with the rest of your post, though.
and could argue that your desire to make a buck is your REAL motivation in teaching so you are probably correct in not expecting any appreciation, Right ?