What not to wear

Cafe Society
21

[QUOTE=Huerta88]
Remember that that show is predicated on the premise of having London fashionistas apply their own particularized definition of “what to wear” to women who don’t travel in those same circles. This “prescriptive” view of fashion is certainly prevalent, but that does not mean that the presenters’ views are literally indicative of a one single “right” way to dress. However, there will always be an audience for shows, magazines, etc. that “tell” women how to: dress; use makeup; lose weight; get a man. Women seem to like to be told what to do (even when it’s phrased in terms of “you’re doing it all wrong!”).

The times I’ve flicked by that, the women under the microscope often started out wearing stuff that seemed pretty practical and appropriate to their daily chores and milieu (let’s say being a garden-mad mum of three in the Midlands). Which would make it inappropriate for jetting off to Tuscany or lunch at the Ivy (the hostesses’ more likely reference points). Or else they would be someone who’s put on weight and hasn’t quite figured out how to conceal it (because fashion tips for fat folk aren’t as glam as the latest news from the runway).

Finally, we can all agree that makeover shows of every kind seem to have a built-in audience. You can’t have an “after” without a much-derided “before.”
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If you’d ever watched the shows all the way through, you’d see that the women are never told to lose weight; they are shown clothes that fit the body shapes they actually have. Most of them are already wearing makeup, but they get some hints (off screen); you see a bit more on the US version. And many of the women already “have” a man.

The women are shown how to dress in styles flattering to them. Current fashions aren’t the top concern–unless the women are stuck in the 80’s, or in similar dire straits. And the wardrobes suit their lives–whether career oriented or at home. (Must all SAHM’s look like slobs?)

I loved the original show, seen here on BBCamerica. The US version isn’t bad.

“Women seem to like to be told what to do”–have you had success using this assumption in daily life?

22

[QUOTE=blinkingblinking]
Why don’t many women know what to wear? AFAIK women spend a lot of time discussing clothes.
[/QUOTE]

This woman doesn’t.

I just don’t “get” fashion, I never have. Despite two rounds of “charm school” in my formative years. I seem to have managed to collect an acceptable wardrobe, but frankly, if it weren’t for my husband (who has much better fashion sense than I ever will - and he’s a guy!) I’d probably commit fashion sins a couple times a month.

23

[QUOTE=Sage Rat]
There was an alternative to hip-huggers while it was in fashion?

Well I’ll be darned… :dubious:
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Well, yeah, there are variations that can look flattering. You don’t need to wear pube exposing jeans, pick a nice rise that’s a couple of inches below the belly button and that will flatter most people. Pants to the waist tend to emphasize belly pooches. And part of that is the whole point about how fashions change and you need to let your eye adjust to what’s current. The waist high rise looked fine during the eighties, looked completely dated in the 00’s and is gradually coming back in style.

Honestly, I agree with you. The American show is too concerned with just pushing the latest looks from their sponsors and isn’t all that awesome with non-perfect bodies. Still, people almost always look better when they at least try to wear something nice and get out of the sweatpants.

Have you seen the UK show on BBC? I think they’re much better at working with differnt body types. I remember one episode in particular with a short, stocky woman who was kinda squarish. She picked out an ordinary jean jacket and it looked meh. They put her in a jean jacket with a small peplum and very slightly puffed sleeves and suddenly she had a waist. It looked fabulous.

24

[QUOTE=tremorviolet]
Well, yeah, there are variations that can look flattering.
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Not really. If you’re flopping over the sides, you’re going to flop over the sides regardless of the cut. Your only choices are to wear something baggy overtop that hides it (which was against the low-rider, whale tale look) or have a pant/shirt solution of relatively tough cloth that keeps a consistent line instead of wobblies–and you can’t get that with low riders.

25

I would love to have someone tear through my closet and help me pick out new stuff; I just haven’t had the time or wanted to spend the money to do it myself lately, as I’ve been really busy. I’ve also gained a few pounds over the last year, so I’ve been too down on myself to care about clothes shopping, and I’m just now coming around to caring about my appearance again.
I think the same thing has happened to the women on the show. They get busy, they don’t go shopping, and they don’t realize how bad their clothes look without a wake-up call. I know when I realize I need clothes and go on an outfit binge, my old clothes, which were perfectly acceptable a week before, don’t even look wearable to me!

One thing I don’t like about the American version (it’s been too long since I’ve seen the British version for me to have an opinion) is their tendency to put everyone in high heels. I walk to work and around town frequently, and I just don’t see how it’s practical for most busy people to wear high heels all the time. I think my feet would fall off.

26

[QUOTE=Sage Rat]
Not really. If you’re flopping over the sides, you’re going to flop over the sides regardless of the cut. Your only choices are to wear something baggy overtop that hides it (which was against the low-rider, whale tale look) or have a pant/shirt solution of relatively tough cloth that keeps a consistent line instead of wobblies–and you can’t get that with low riders.
[/QUOTE]

The low rider/whale tail look was popular with high school students/college kids but was never really considered “fashionable”. A well cut pair of slightly lower rise jeans that fit (many women squeeze themselves into the absolutely smallest pair they can and subsquently get horrendous “muffin tops”) with a shirt long enough to cover the tops can look flattering on most women. The high wasted jeans with a belt and a tucked in shirt doesn’t currently look flattering 'cause styles have changed. And that’s a lot of what the show does, shows people alternatives to their favorites.

I’m not gonna argue that it will look flattering on all women. If you’re morbidly obese, your choices are limited. If you had a extra arm and leg, your choices would be limited too. But if you wear a modified version of what’s in style, you at least look like you’d like to look stylish And, hey, no one says you have to worry about this. You can keep wearing the exact same clothing style you’re comfortable with for the next twenty years. But there are options out there.

27

I did not really want to see a thread on how good that show was. I was just using it as an example. The newspaper here does a picture show every week of good and bad outfits that hollywood stars wear. What amazes me is how hollywood stars can make such basic mistakes.

28

[QUOTE=blinkingblinking]
I did not really want to see a thread on how good that show was. I was just using it as an example. The newspaper here does a picture show every week of good and bad outfits that hollywood stars wear. What amazes me is how hollywood stars can make such basic mistakes.
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Oh–so you’re just wondering why women don’t know what to wear! Despite your link to the show–you’d prefer not to talk about it… Men have “starred” in a few episodes in both the UK & US versions of the show.

Hollywood stars? They can afford wardrobe counseling. Maybe they’re spending that money on drugs? Or maybe the drugs make them not give a damn…

29

[QUOTE=5-4-Fighting]
Thanks, SmartAleq, I didn’t know that What Not To Wear had featured men.

I have never seen a moment of Queer Eye; it pandered to stereotyes too much for me (the ads I’ve seen).
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Do you mean it looked too fruity?
You might want to check it out, in any case; I’m not sure how the later seasons were, but when it first started I thought it was really fun - they talked about all sort of stuff like gadgets, interesting places to go, etc. If they’d left New York I woulld probably have watched more (it started getting redundant, and they started doing it to guys who didn’t “need” it as much).
They were always shaving off people’s beards, though, and then you noticed what weak chins they all had.

As for WNTW, I used to love that show (I love cleaning up/organizing things, and clothes) till it got too redundant as well. It does give some good tips about length and fit and there were some endearing makeoverees on there. I wished they’d clam up about cashmere, though.

30

[QUOTE=Viridiana]
Do you mean it looked too fruity? You might want to check it out, in any case; I’m not sure how the later seasons were, but when it first started I thought it was really fun - they talked about all sort of stuff like gadgets, interesting places to go, etc.
[/QUOTE]
[Slight hijack]Yes. I’m a gay man and, though I’m not usually bothered by the more feminine types of displays, I’m unconmfortable with this image being packaged to cater to middle America’ stereotypical assumptions of what all gay are like. There are gay who behave this way, but I’ve seen too much of it (from Soap to Will and Grace, etc..[/sh]

[QUOTE=SmartAleq]
Secondly, the contestants shop in New York City–and I’ve seen people shopping in bizarre Goth supply stores and little hole in the wall shops as well as big clothiers–and at the end when they do the reveal the voiceover gives prices on items and they are by NO means always high ticket. I’ve seen people score twenty dollar silk tops, fifty dollar stylin’ shoes–the main thing is that when they buy spendy items it’s almost always a foundation piece that can anchor many different outfits.
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I like how they do that too. Actually, during the times have I have been a little current and active in dressing well, I’ve always worked with this concept. I have no problem mixing what would be an oversized item for a hip-hopper, but for me a normal size (when they can be found) with a more preppy, conservative or otherwise incongruence mix. It’s a little harder to do as I get older though.

31

[QUOTE=Vihaga]
I think the same thing has happened to the women on the show. They get busy, they don’t go shopping, and they don’t realize how bad their clothes look without a wake-up call. I know when I realize I need clothes and go on an outfit binge, my old clothes, which were perfectly acceptable a week before, don’t even look wearable to me!
[/QUOTE]
Like I said, I used to care and dressed quite well. But now, since I’m unable to spend more than ten minutes in a store within running out the door and don’t care that much, I just need a shock to wake me up and set me back on course.

32

[QUOTE=5-4-Fighting]
Like I said, I used to care and dressed quite well. But now, since I’m unable to spend more than ten minutes in a store within running out the door and don’t care that much, I just need a shock to wake me up and set me back on course.
[/QUOTE]

Well, maybe you ought to start a “Straight Eye for the Queer Guy” thread, post some pics of you in various outfits and see if we can give you some pointers! :wink:

C’mon, it’ll be FUN!!! :cue eeeevil laughter here: :smiley:

33

[QUOTE=Sage Rat]
Pretty much, anyone who dresses poorly, is doing so for one of the following reasons:

  1. Popular fashion tends to be unflattering unless you have a perfect body.
  2. Stopped caring at some point.
  3. Lying to themselves about their real age or body type.
  4. Truly, no fashion sense or knowledge.

#4 is actually decently rare, though. Most people fall into one of the first three groups.
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I think they are all linked somewhat. I look at where I work (a consulting firm in Manhattan). Most of us, while we aren’t models, are (or look) young, in relatively good shape and reasonably attractive (by lawyer/accountant/tech consultant standards). Most of us also are well educated, professional and come from the greater New York area. Also, many of us actually LIKE wearing nice clothes. Many of the guys wear Hugo Boss suits or Thomas Pink ties and there are a couple of guys who always know when Charles Thywitt is having a sale.

So speaking for myself, I know where to buy clothes and how to match them, I dress in a way that’s appropriate for a 25 year old professional (hey, if you keep telling me I look 10 years younger than I am, I’m going to dress that way), my job REQUIRES me to care about my image and at a well proportioned 5’11", 195lbs I can fit into a lot of styles.

Still, we do have people who just don’t “get it” (we are a firm of lawyers , accountants and tech consultants after all). Like:

  • the pretty, 5’9" skinny blond girl who’s hair is always kind of rumpled and is hit or miss with her outfits
  • the good looking exercise nut who doesn’t realize that striped pants and a diagonal plaid pattern shirt make him look like an optical illusion
  • the fat girl who looks like she just rolled out of bed
  • the older former network engineer who insists on dressing like he’s a network engineer (frayed corporate golf shirt, ill fitting mis-matched chinos)
  • the sloppy guy who either dresses like he’s going to a tailgate or wears a suit that is dated and/or completely over the top

I can only assume that these people

  1. don’t think their body type or physical appearance lends itself to stylish clothes
  2. don’t care
  3. don’t know what they should be looking for
  4. or don’t own a mirror
34

Disclaimer: I’ve only seen the British version of the show, and haven’t seen it for a while - looking at the Wikipedia article, I was surprised to see that Trinny and Susannah are no longer presenting it!

But when I did watch it, I thought it was mostly good advice, with some of T&S’s own biases mixed in, of course.

As I remember it, most of the women (and occasional men) they gave makeovers to fit into one of two groups. The larger group was dressing, they thought, to hide what they perceived as their flaws. Unfortunately they were failing to bring out their good features (they often didn’t believe they had good features!), usually failing to conceal what they set out to conceal, and generally made themselves look heavier and considerably less attractive than they really were. One woman I remember clearly, for instance, had recently lost a lot of weight and was proud of it. But you wouldn’t guess that from the way she was dressing, still wearing the tent-like styles that hadn’t flattered her when she was heavy and now completely hid the attractive figure she’d worked so hard to acheive.

Another group was dressing as they had when they were younger - either because they believed that dressing like a 25-year-old (or their perception of how a 25 y.o. should dress) would make them look younger, or because they believed that was “their” style and newer styles were not for them.

This doesn’t cover all the people who were made-over, but I think I can say those were the most common reasons why friends brought them to the show’s/T&S’s attention. For the first group, the advice dealt with ways to emphasize their assets and to a lesser extent de-emphasize “problem areas” in order to draw the eye to what was beautiful about these women. For the second, they emphasized finding classic styles that flattered each woman and would make the best of who she was right now, rather than trying to hang on to her twenties. In most, though not all, cases, I thought the women looked much better when wearing the clothes that fit the “rules”.

Neither one of these things is difficult, really, but in my experience it isn’t what most women talk about when they talk about clothes. Many women figure these things out by themselves, sometimes with the help of a friend or two, but quite a few just keep buying the fashion magazines and listening to friends with different body shapes and coloring talk about what they buy, and then figure something must be wrong with them when they don’t look as good as they’d hoped.

(But I thought the “throw it all out” rule was/is dumb. I’m not going to wear my newest and most flattering clothes when I’m cleaning out the attic, y’know?)

35

[QUOTE=msmith537]

I can only assume that these people

  1. don’t think their body type or physical appearance lends itself to stylish clothes
  2. don’t care
  3. don’t know what they should be looking for
  4. or don’t own a mirror
    [/QUOTE]

#2 seems negative, so I’ll add a fifth reason that is more neutral:

  1. they are focused on other things

Some of the most brilliant people in the world have crappy wardrobes. It’s not that they don’t understand the concept of fashion and dressing for success; it’s that they are too focused on other things. Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Jane Goodall, Mother Teresa …sometimes people are so focused on their vision that things like wearing fashionable glasses is just too trivial to register.

http://www.wspa.de/campaigns/bushmeat/images/goodall.jpg

Not exactly brilliant dressers, but I daresay some of the most successful, brilliant, respected people on Earth.

36

[QUOTE=PunditLisa]

  1. they are focused on other things

Some of the most brilliant people in the world have crappy wardrobes. It’s not that they don’t understand the concept of fashion and dressing for success; it’s that they are too focused on other things. Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Jane Goodall, Mother Teresa …sometimes people are so focused on their vision that things like wearing fashionable glasses is just too trivial to register.

[/QUOTE]

I’m pretty sure there are more crappy dressers than brilliant geniuses out there. But to a certain extent that is true. Keeping up with the latest fashion trends and maintaining your wardrobe is time consuming and expensive. Most adults have higher priorities.

37

I love fashion and am considered (by my friends, at least) to be fairly fashion conscious and savvy.

I love the British (Trinny & Susannah) verision of WNTW and learned a great deal from them. I also have their books; that’s where I first learned of Spanx - possibly the greatest shapewear ever created.

Even people who love fashion & know how to dress their particular body can always stand to learn something.

VCNJ~

38

[QUOTE=msmith537]
I’m pretty sure there are more crappy dressers than brilliant geniuses out there.
[/QUOTE]

That’s true. I was responding to the inference that tech consultants who don’t wear Hugo Boss suits just “don’t get it.” Some do, in fact, “get it” and are focused on things that really matter as opposed to the label sewn into their clothes.