What Ought We to Do to be Ready Next Time?

The climate disaster is already upon us and is compounding. NOAA predicts ~40 million Americans will be flooded this year. Floods and wildfires are more common around the world. Governments prioritize the virus now so cyclone and conflagration survivors will be afterthoughts and responders will be reduced because infected. Summer north of the equator won’t slow viral spread. The fun is only starting.

  1. Good idea, and maybe possible.
  2. Good luck with that. The rich get richer. The poor hope for herd immunity.

Its the most common symptom of coronavirus with 88-90% of cases having a fever, and apparently it can be used to track movement of both coronavirus and the flu.

Fever may not be a specific symptom, but if you observe a sudden rise in the number of elevated body temperatures in one city or region it is an indication that there may be a nascent epidemic in the works. And frankly the next generation of FitBit-style activity trackers is going to be able to collect enough information to detect signs of infection really early, possibly even before patients recognize that something is wrong. But, setting aside the privacy concerns of this kind of public surveillance and involuntary collection of private health data, what we really need is to have a more robust and automated system for reporting and processing of health data in patients going to doctors or clinics and presenting non-specific or unidentified signs and symptoms, and one that works across international borders so that one nation can’t try to conceal an outbreak. Will China or Iran permit that? Not without a lot of international pressure but I think this pandemic has made clear that infectious disease is not a local problem, and if uncontained can become a global health and security threat. The problem with conventional epidemiology is that scientists almost always get the data after the fact, so they can see how the contagion spread but not in time to make effective predictions to head it off. With automated, proactive reporting, it may be possible to take measures to contain the contagion or at least get enough lead time to make preparations and develop effective positive antigen testing before the spread becomes so wide that track and trace is no longer viable.

Stranger

I was saying that tracking by itself isn’t going to do it. The reason the local officials prevented an honest accounting is that they lived in fear that bad news would result in them being fired or worse. The reason they got away with it was that censorship prevented people from reporting the true facts without fear of being arrested - as we saw.
This isn’t just China. All major businesses in the US have all sorts of anti-discrimination and anti-corruption rules. The differentiator is what happens to the person who violates them and the person who is a whistleblower. If the former gets rewarded and the latter gets punished, the rules ain’t worth shit. I’ve worked in such a company.

One more general rule. We have to get rid of the conservative principle of starving the beast and cutting anything not obviously immediately useful, and sometimes even that. In this case the beast was a watchdog and starving it (the Pandemic board) let the bad guys into the house. Saving money on ventilator maintenance was more important than having them maintained, and so people are dying.
Anyone who has been involved with a factory know that you don’t run at 100% capacity. Some machines have to be idle to take over for machines that break or need to be maintained or to handle spikes. Government is the same way. Any plant manager not knowing this will eventually get fired when the inevitable disaster happens. I suggest we fire government leaders who don’t understand this. We are seeing the consequences today.

See, you say that, but people are taking what the CCP (or CPC or whatever the fuck is the politically correct acronym these days) says seriously since they have been told what a great job China has done in this crisis. And the CCP is endorsing this stuff (probably because it’s cheap, at least some segment of their population believes in it, and things are worse than the CCP is making things out to be). To YOU (and probably most 'dopers who roll their eyes at this stuff, me included) it seems stupid, but this is being pushed in China…and by extension the world. We already know that crazy crystal and homeopathic horseshit is here, we know that people believe in acupuncture and anti-vaxx and all manner of crazy crap, and we are told that the Chinese have nipped this thing in the bud, so I can guarantee you that many will be looking into eye of bat or bear bile (that’s actually a real thing, not the eye of bat thing…I think they use other parts for their wondrous medicine) as solutions.

It’s why I think it is important to actually dig into what really happened and is happening in China, because it’s a hell of a lot worse than we are being told and assured by the WHO and our media. And decisions and political opinion are being shaped by that, not by reality. So you can hand wave this all you like, but ignorance and fear are going to be driving things if we just keep our mouths shut and swallow what the CCP is peddling because we don’t want to rock the boat during a crisis.

“But—and I am only saying this because I care—there are a lot of decaffeinated brands on the market today that are just as tasty as the real thing.”

Stranger

Gods, I love that quote. :slight_smile: Yeah, I hear you…need…too…lower…caffeine…intake…

It’s been said that generals always plan for the last war. And we plan for the last disaster.

The problem with an all-out effort to stockpile ventilators, masks, etc., is that they only help in certain crises. But if we prepare perfectly for the next pandemic that primarily affects the lungs, the next crisis may be a financial collapse, or a perfect 100-year storm, or a massive volcanic eruption, or a war, or a large asteroid hit, or a Carrington event… All of which we are unprepared for at a government level.

Or we could store 100,000 ventilators, only to have the next virus attack the brain or the heart or the liver and kidneys, and suddenly we’ll have warehouses of ventilators but a huge shortage of dialysis machines or heart and lung machines, and everyone will start yelling that we should have known and prepared.

The answer for a free society is not to do what closed societies do and make the government responsible for planning and carrying out disaster responses (including providing supplies), but to leverage our strength. America didn’t win WWII because it had the best generals or the best leaders or the best preparation. The U.S. won WWII because it unleashed the economic power of a free economy, and because it let businesses find their own solutions to problems and offer solutions to the government. Remember 'The Arsenal of Democracy"? That wasn’t a literal collection of weapons and equipment - it was the untapped productive ability of the U.S. economy.

What we should be doing is drafting plans to rapidly enlist the industrial capacity of the nation. For example, create an open-source ventilator design that is specifically designed to be built on existing assembly lines. Maximum use of off-the-shelf parts, 3D printed parts, etc. If there are critical materials that are only available from other countries, stockpile enough of those, but not finished machines.

You don’t have to build, warehouse and maintain thousands of ventilators if you can ramp up production of them in a week or two to supply the demand. Do the same for other disaster goods. Ensure that the U.S. industry has enough flex capacity to devote production to various disaster goods rapidly.

Also, scrap anti-gouging laws. They prevent the market from working in crisis situations, and are a really bad idea. Currently, those laws are preventing the U.S. from competing for N95 masks with countries that don’t have such laws. American companies are afraid to buy them at the current inflated prices for fear that they won’t be able to resell them on the U.S. market without running afoul of such laws. So they are being sold to foreign companies under no such restrictions.

It’s clear that the CDC and the FDA slowed down the response because their regulatory regimes prevented innovation and testing. A disaster response commission should take a pre-emptive look at which regulations might get in the way when response times have to be rapid and responses have to be flexible, and develop formal waiver programs that can be established and implemented rapidly to cut red tape when it’s needed. For example, if people need to hire crews fast to help fill sandbags for floods or help out in hospitals or whatever, they shouldn’t have to jump through weeks of paperwork to do it. If someone comes up with a test or a vaccine, it shouldn’t have to go through the same kinds of regulatory hurdles that wouldn’t be complete until the crisis was over or everyone was dead.

When you face MANY potential crises, and the future is a random walk and unpredictable, the best thing to do is to make sure your institutions are anti-fragile. That means dispersed decision-making, not centralized. It means roads and cars, and less mass transit. Companies should have disaster plans that include rapid isolation of the workforce and as much telecommuting as possible. It means people being more evenly distributed, rather than crammed into huge cities. It means having many suppliers of everything, and redundant supply chains.

This can be achieved somewhat just through tax policy. Tax incentives to companies that either move their facilities out of crowded cities or expand to other locations, Financial incentives for having a remote workforce, etc.

There are lots of ways to encourage the private market to assist in disaster prep. Ensuring that they can profit through warehousing disaster goods by allowing prices to float to market levels would be a good start. Perhaps even tax breaks for companies that do an annual certification that they can change over certain lines to manufacturing disaster goods within a fixed period of time would be good.

Or here’s a way to do it - every couple of years, the government could announce that companies that can provide ventilator model X or N95 masks or generators or whatever will be able to sell them to the government for twice the price up to a certain limit, but only if they provide them in a fixed time. This is just the cost of testing the disaster plan. Other conditions could be added to simulate disasters. For example, you could say that no raw materials from China can be used for this test, or that this other test must be run on backup power in case the grid is down, or whatever. Wargame it. The government can then take those goods and either stockpile them as a backup, donate them to the third world, replenish government hospitals, or whatever.

But the point would be to ensure that if a disaster hits, America can rapidly produce whatever is needed. If you can do that, you don’t need to store the stuff. The same philosophy holds for other disaster preparedness: As much as is possible, the answer should be to build an economy that can route around disaster like the internet does. That means less central control, just like the internet, and disaster responses by the government should be at least partly directed at making sure there are no roadblocks that prevent the private economy from solving the problem.

I’m not going to debate the “free market conquerors all” ideology but this statement in particular is very wrong, and it needs to be addressed because there seem to be many people making the same misapprehension. The reason for multistage trials and verifications in infection tests, treatments, and vaccines isn’t some kind of mindless red tape arbitrarily created by bureaucrats seeking some kind of job security; those procedures are in place because the potential for making a bad situation much worse is very real in medicine, and the “First, do no harm,” isn’t just a manta but a very principle of good medicine.

Tests need to be independently validated before being released for use because the errors that can come out of bad testing can damage the response and cost lives. In fact, the early SARS-CoV-2 antigen test released by the CDC is strongly suspected of providing a lot of false negatives (also apparently problems with impure reagents used in early tests) which meant that people who were potentially contagious were not isolated and did not receive early monitoring and care. Conversely, false positives can mislead epidemiologists looking to get ahead of the contagion. This is a case where bad information is literally worse than no information.

Medication for treating respiratory illnesses can have significant side effects including damage to internal organs, increase in incidences in cancer, and other detrimental outcomes. We already have the problem of tending to overmedicate people for conditions that could be managed by lifestyle changes but in this case the damage caused by not understanding the efficacy of treatment versus the risks in a new application could be catastrophic, and handing doctors a treatment protocol that hasn’t been thoroughly vetted is inviting liability and the potential for a worse outcome that doing nothing in all but the most severe cases. For all of the proposed treatments to date, the treatment protocol has to be started before the COVID-19 disease progresses to a really critical condition, so you can’t really tell who might die anyway and therefore a ‘Hail Mary’ treatment is ethically justified even if it may kill the patient, and who might recover save for the detrimental effects of the treatment.

As for vaccines, because they are prophylactic in nature, it is important to make sure that they both work and they don’t have horrific eventual side effects like causing cancers or chronic health problems in otherwise healthy people. The reason we can say with confidence that anti-vaxxers are almost entirely full of crap is because of the tiered system of testing which first verifies that the vaccine is safe, and then demonstrates its efficacy so that we don’t have a false sense of confidence about the effectiveness of the immunization. There are procedures to escalate vaccine trials for a quicker approval by skipping the animal trials but for this virus even a lot of immunologists who work on accelerated human challenge trials are recommending against using that approach in this case for both ethical and technical reasons.

In any case, a vaccine will not arrive in time to “flatten the curve” even if we rushed a seemingly promising vaccine into production and release right now, and is mostly of value in preventing future outbreaks and hopefully assuring that the SARS-CoV-2 virus does not become endemic within the population. There is literally no reason to rush a vaccine to immediate release even if the public perception is that a vaccine will be a panacea. The reality is that the estimated case fatality rate from the number of deaths by the number of known infected is somewhere around 1%, but as we discover how many people are actually asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic and untested (through post-infection antibody testing) that CFR may drop significantly to less than 0.5%. That’s still a lot of deaths, but if a bad treatment protocol or vaccine causes more deaths or significant chronic impacts to an even larger number of people then it will literally be “a cure worse than the disease.”

The free markets/free minds unregulated libertarian mentality is, well, debatable when you are dealing with economic issues and consumer products with minimal hazards. It is far less applicable when it comes to things like occupational safety or product liability resulting in serious injury or death, and it absolutely doesn’t apply to medicine where we don’t just assume that the best treatment will win out in the end and it was worth having a bunch of people die unnecessarily in a rush to get product to market. This is an area where we actually need to listen to the experts and follow the process that medical science has developed to assure that medical interventions are effective and less risky than doing nothing, else we are basically playing at the same level as the people promoting Reiki treatment or vagina eggs.

Stranger

I listen to my governor’s update every day and the thing that sticks out is the need to fast track new items or procedures. It’s amazing the things that aren’t normally thought of that get bogged down in red tape. We will always have that need going forward because things change over time but we could codify what worked this time and do it in a way that can be reviewed for updates.

One of the things that has come out of this is the ability to double up on respirators. That’s already been approved. They can be chained in pairs to patients who have the same lung capacity. We could also us BIPAP machines that are modified with masks that filter the air going out of the patient. They could greatly increase the number of breathing machines available at a moment’s notice. A standard BIPAP machine works fine for the patient but the masks used for sleep apnea allow the virus to expel into the room and spread it around. It’s the mask that we would need to stockpile and that’s much cheaper than a warehouse full of respirators.

We now have a system of cleaning masks that might be easier to stockpile than billions of mask that deteriorate over time. We’re just getting these up and running in my state and NYC is getting some of the units as well as I think Washington state. that was one of the items bogged down in red tape. My governor had to call the President directly to get it pushed through. I don’t know how you deal with this in a codified manner but that has to be part of the process.

I think people are going to be surprised at how much red tape was cut during this pandemic.

Never said anything like it. But thanks for the snark. I simply pointed out that it’s crazy not to leverage the massive amounts of capacity in the private sector. Sorry if that gets in the way of your “the government conquers all” ideology.

Yes, yes. We all know this. But if you think a generic drug application process needs no modification in times of crisis, you’re just wrong. Regulations are about risk/reward. Which is why we cut the red tape at both the FDA and the CDC right now, why we have waiver programs for terminally ill patients, why we allowed AIDS patients access to potentially life-saving drugs before certification trials were complete, etc. A covid-19 vaccine that will be ready after a few years of testing isn’t going to do any good. And no, it won’t be ready in any case to ‘bend the curve’ in the next couple of months, but boy would it suck if covid-19 comes back in a year and we STILL don’t have a vaccine ready because we’ve decided on years of tests and trials before attempting to actually use it.

A bad pandemic can kill a hundred million people or more. In that circumstance I think the unproven side effects of a potential vaccine are worth risking - especially if the doctors responsible for administering it have looked at the literature and agree that the risk is worth it for the most at-risk patients. Then we’ll learn from them.

That doesn’t mean we have to be stupid and just let people inject new treatments in others willy-nilly. But we CAN do things like waive efficacy requirements in favor of widespread testing. In fact, that’s exactly what we are doing now - allowing hydroxychloroquine and Z-pack to be distributed widely for covid-19, despite there being no formal trials for efficacy in that case. We DO know the safety profile of the drug, so in a crisis situation we decided to skip efficacy testing and go right to widespread distribution AS the efficacy test. You can do this in a crisis because the desire to test for efficacy has more to do with normal markets and snake oil and such. In a world pandemic where doctors are in control of disbursing the medication, it makes total sense to skip that regulation.

And it’s not just drug trials I’m talking about. Normally, something like a Ventilator would require years of testing and documentation. The FDA requires massive paperwork on every process that goes into making it, every raw material, the controllability of the assembly line itself, you name it. I know what I’m talking about, because I’ve written the software to manage it.

But when you are in a situation where people are dying because there are no ventilators at all, those rules NEED to go out the window. Blowing in someone’s lungs with an old hose is better than just watching them die. So lots of regs like that can be streamlined.

There are many other mundane regulations that should be looked at. For example, it might be a great benefit for companies that have masks or other in-demand products to be able to put a sign in their window saying, “Toilet paper here” or whatever it is they have that people need. But there are also cities that don’t allow any signage in the window of a business until approved by a bureaucrat - a process which sometimes takes weeks or months. Local, state, and federal regulations can have lots of negative consequences when the prime requirement is moving fast.

Again, we ARE doing these things. And everyone seems to agree that these things need to be done. But we wasted precious weeks while the regulatory agencies got their acts together, and we could only address these issues after they cropped up and we identified the bottleneck. I’m just saying that disaster plans could be drawn up that look at a whole host of regulations that may make perfect sense in normal times, but which will slow down disaster responses. Get the regulatory disaster regime in place early, so people know what the rules are and the market, volunteers, AND governments can respond more efficiently.

Next time?

a) drag the old folks back into the caves

b) cover them with our best hides

c) if anyone coughs a lot, make them go down to the caves down by the river

This is so wrong. The US in WW II succeeded because it had an excellent manufacturing base which was directed into war work by the government. We had rationing. We had price controls. The government did not bid for planes and tanks from GM and Ford - they got directed to make planes and tanks.
Trump has the power to direct companies to make ventilators. He is not using it because, I’ve read, some conservative free market advisers are opposed. So people are going to die because of free market principles. Fucking thanks.

It seems you think we did well in WW II. The whole economy was running under anti-gouging laws. One big problem today is that governors have to bid against each other, and the federal government - for critical supplies.

There are already mechanisms in place to accelerate the use of tests from other countries and WHO. Trump’s incompetent appointees at the FDA stalled and dithered for weeks. Not to mention starving the beast resulted in funding cuts for critical government agencies. And there are lots of open critical positions, and many in positions are inexperienced. But who wants to work for a psychotic boss?

The US is distributed. That’s good in that some states - like mine - acted a lot faster than the federal government. However some states - like Florida and mostly red states - are still dawdling about implementing lockdowns. That’s from them being anti-science.
I’ve been involved in supply chains. We used to have second sources for everything. But that costs money - you get a worse deal for lower volume, and the second source is going to be more expensive than the first. So it mostly got done away with. Capitalism in action. Yeah, good idea, but the short-sightedness of the free market is not going to allow it. Unless you are proposing that government mandate it. From what I saw, if China decided to attack Taiwan the entire tech sector would crash worse than it is crashing now. North America doesn’t nearly have enough fab capacity for our needs. Again, free market at work.
I agree about not fighting the last war, and already said so. But if the next disaster is toxic atmospheric pollution, say, pushing everyone from mass transit to ICE vehicles might not have been a good idea.

The Chinese recognized this issue…after SARS. So they set up a system designed to avoid it. A computerized system that linked the provinces and urban centers’ Doctors directly with medical authorities in Beijing, The idea was to ensure that there would be no political interference, doctors would talk to Doctors. Awesome right.
Well when COVID19 started, it failed. No one sent any report on the system to Beijing, the first they heard about it was from (IIRC) a police report of the market closure two weeks later. It’s still not entirely clear why they (Wuhan medical authorities) did not send it. However, from what can be ascertained, at least initially they thought it was just another outbreak of viral pneumonia, common in the region at that time and not worth bothering Bejing about, and when the later realized it was something different, they kept delaying, maybe out of fear or maybe because they still didn’t think it was worth reporting.

Talks of political ideologies, therefore, as satisfying as it may be to “destroy the ChiComs” or the “corporate culture” is misplaced. Those can be accounted for. The human element? Not so much. As the above example illustrates. What do you do? Tell them to report everything? That might work, but then it might get lost in the mass of reports coming in, desensitizing authorities. Report when you have high confidence that there is a situation, well we saw what happened in Wuhan, if you are relying on subjective interpretation even of professionals.
I dunno, maybe a checklist?

Absolutely. And in addition to the points you have raised, a lot of the surveillance technologies and techniques are pretty classified and nations might be reluctant.
The automated reporting system already existed in China and it failed due to the human element, as I mentioned above in the post.

That’s the system I’m referring to. If someone is told not to report and reports anyway, the government far away is going to protect him from the boss next door? Not likely.
If everyone did report, they might have detected something early. I don’t believe the Chinese are worse at data analytics than we are, and this kind of problem is perfect for existing analysis systems. But if people are afraid to enter the data, it doesn’t work very well.

I mean, we don’t know for certain but it’s pretty clear what the reason was. Some doctor somewhere reports a bunch of suspicious cases and then suddenly, the next day a bunch of bureaucrat scientists from Beijing descend on your town and they force you to shut down 3 square city blocks and close a school and a dozen factories and then nothing bad happens and you’re stuck explaining to your boss why production figures were down in your sector that quarter so you go into the hospital and figure out who it was that sent that report and yell at them/do something worse to them for causing all of this disruption for nothing. Over time, informal systems are jury rigged into place to bypass that system because the political incentive system demands it.

This is the inherent nature of pandemic response, it’s not a problem unique to one political system or one way of organizing society. When you avert a disaster, it looks like you over-reacted. When you fail to avert a disaster, the backseat drivers pore over your decisions and nitpick every single choice you made.

I think you are missing the point. The system was designed to keep the government bureaucrats away from medical decisions including the decision to report, it was supposed to be reliant only on medical doctors. The party apparatchiks were very much not in the loop.
And contrary to what has been reported, the doctors **did **go over the head of the Wuhan medical community leaders and tell Bejing directly. Bejing didn’t follow through initially since, well they had a system, insulated from political and bureaucratic meddling and they would have surely told them if it was to be worried about. Now somehow you seem to think this would play differently elsewhere…that somehow in the US you wouldn’t have people thinking “oh its no big deal”, that somehow the superior Westerner would never make such an “oriental” error.
Maybe.

“Information wants to be free.” I have no understanding of the information flow in China. But the Chinese do spend a lot of time and money trying to control information. In the long run that cannot work.
I was very impressed these thermometers that report your temperature to some central database. With it, the company can produce a weather map of unusual aseaonal illness. It is that way with a lot of stuff. It is harder and harder to keep bad news under wraps. That is why the Chinese (and the Saudis) try so hard to do so.

Are there societal changes we ought to consider, rather than just saying individuals and governments ought to spend more money? (I acknowledge, however, that any adverse impact on business effectively reduces money available to governments - with the same result.)

I don’t want to come across as a Sinophobe, anti-business, or anything else, but to the extent many flus and communicable diseases seem to arise in the far East, do we accept and encourage the spread by increasing our reliance on their cheap labor/products? Hell, doing business with a culture that is so ignorant as to rely on “traditional” medicine seems to impose costs. Who should bear those costs?

Ready inexpensive air travel seems to enable the rapid spread of such bugs. Someone upthread suggested the rapid closure of air travel from affected areas. Maybe cruise ships as well. But ought those industries - and folk relying on them - bear the costs upfront? Yes, ready accessible travel conveys considerable benefits - but are the costs being adequately assessed and allocated?

What other social activities ought to be discouraged as a matter of course? Or suspended immediately upon potential problems?