Vermont was originally French (hence the name), then disputed between NY and NH (and maybe even MA), but it’s been considered part of New England since it came into being. There was an earlier “Dominion of New England” in the 1600s that included NY, but that didn’t last more than a few years. As long as the US has been in existence, NY has not been considered part of New England. Doesn’t matter what it looks like, it’s not New England. Period.
Broadly speaking, New Englanders want nothing to do with New Yorkers (unless their last name is Kennedy).
From a political and legal standpoint, the idea of New England has no more meaning than the Midwest or the South. The only thing which unites Vermont and Rhode Island but excludes New Jersey and Ohio is that Vermont and Rhode Island share common cultural traditions that New Jersey and Ohio do not.
And cultural traditions don’t recognize state lines. Northern California and Southern California have two distinct cultures even though they both exist in a single state. People in Alabama and Mississippi share a common culture even though they’re two separate states. Places in Northeast New Jersey like Jersey City and Hoboken - and West New York - are culturally much more linked to New York City than they are to Trenton or Princeton or Atlantic City.
Regardless, this does seem to come up every couple years on this MB. New England, unlike any other “region” in the US has a definite border. It’s 6 states, no more no less, no controversy, no uncertainty, no nothing. It’s ME, NH, VT, MA, CT and RI. Period.
I’d easily consider PA, MD, DE, and NJ as Mid-Atlantic states. NY is NOT a New England state. Maybe it’s a North East state. I’d lump WV in with the Mid-Atlantic. OH thinks of itself as Midwest. Though it could also be a Great Lakes state.
What’s more important in Ohio are your 2 favorite football teams. OSU and whatever team is playing against UM that weekend.
I’d say up the Hudson to at least Albany. Also along the Mohawk for a while, at least as far as Amsterdam.
The only part of New York that might feel like New England is the counties bordering Vermont and Massachusetts. And they’re still not part of New England.
I agree. New York as a whole is not a New England state. Only the northeast portion of New York is.
Albany and Troy are part of Midstate New York not Upstate New York.
What polls?
A quick count. How many people in this conversation about what Upstate New York (as in north of Warrensburg) is like have actually lived there for twenty years? I’m raising my hand here.
I can understand why some New Yorkers might want to be part of New England, but unfortunately* they aren’t. Outsiders don’t get to make themselves insiders by proclamation.
*Unfortunately for them, fortunately for us actual New Englanders.
There are a bunch of places where marginal groups consider themselves part of a group and there are not always good reasons to deny them. It’s a case by case basis. In the case of New England, if New Yorkers suddenly considered themselves part of New England, which they don’t, it would cause communication confusion so I would disagree with their efforts. On the other hand, the region of Appalachia is nebulous enough that I’m willing to consider any mountainous region of PA and OH to be part of Appalachia as long as the residents there think it is.
That said, I don’t see much difference between Vermont and that part of New York State north and east of the Albany metro area, but I haven’t lived in either place, just the Southern Tier for 15 years. I wouldn’t consider them New England, but if there were some sort of regional “Upper New England Regional Council” similar to the Appalachian Regional Commission, I wouldn’t balk if that region were included, just like the Southern Tier is included in the ARC even though residents definitely do not consider themselves to be part of Appalachia. It wouldn’t surprise me if the economic and social issues facing the eastern Adirondacks were similar to that of upper New England, just like there are economic similarities between Appalachia and the Southern Tier of NYS (i.e. changes in how heavily agriculture, resource exploitation, tourism, and mid-scale industry play as parts of the economy.)
