What peoples of the world have a strong national identity but no strong urge for independence?

In My Humble Opinion
41

Yes, between 1993 and 2018 I lived in Indonesia for a total of 17 years.

While it is technically true that Indonesian (Bahasa Indonesia*) is a second language for many speakers, who use a local language at home and in the immediate community, it is becoming increasingly common for it to be the dominant language among younger folks. Since all official business is conducted in Indonesian, mass media is in Indonesian, schools are taught in Indonesian (and national exams are in Indonesian), candy wrappers and street signs are in Indonesian, and so on, it is more and more the language of choice for everyone all the time.

Don’t tell the Balinese that! The Javanese always say that the Balinese language comes from Javanese, but the Balinese resent that and deny it. (I’m not a linguist so I can’t judge, but AFAIK there is some truth to the claim.)

I don’t know that the Javanese language itself is considered “prestigious.” A better word might be “complicated.” Most people, even Javanese, don’t speak it thoroughly. Technically speaking, it has three levels and your choice of every word is dependent on complex considerations of relative status between the people speaking. (So, if I’m a low-status person talking to a person of much higher status, I’d need to show respect by using High Javanese vocabulary with them but they would use Low Javanese words with me.) But to the extent that people use Javanese in their daily lives, sensitivity to those nuances is disappearing.

A significant body of classical poetry is in High Javanese, and some dhalang (shadow puppet masters) perform in Javanese. But your average person on the street, of Javanese descent or not, won’t be conversant with that material.

Not that I have ever heard of. It would be a PITA as Javanese uses a different script and, as noted above, is a difficult language to learn thoroughly.

One caveat on all of the above: I’m not a linguist, I’m merely speaking from my personal observations/impressions over the years. I don’t speak Javanese at all; the few words I know are musical terms and words that have slipped into Indonesian (stripped of their status level considerations). If a language expert were to take issue with anything I’ve said, I’d defer to their knowledge.

(*) It’s becoming common to refer to the Indonesian language as “Bahasa,” a trend that probably started with outsiders shortening “Bahasa Indonesia” without recognizing that this sounds a bit stupid, since “bahasa” just means “language”: for example, in Indonesian, German and French are, respectively, Bahasa Jerman and Bahasa Perancis. So referring to the Indonesian language as “Bahasa” drives purists (me included) nuts. But, language changes and fuddy-duddy refusal to accept those changes invariably loses. So, “Bahasa” it is.

42

Well, depending on your definition of “Viable”, you have the Newfoundlanders. They ran their own show until it went bankrupt, but that was mostly due to incompetence and corruption, rather than a fundamental flaw in their geographical and social structure. They have a culture somewhat distinct from the rest of North America, which they’ve largely maintained. As well, every now and then Quebec starts talking about how they should own Labrador, and almost 100% of Newfoundlanders call bullshit on that every time.

And they voted to join Canada rather than maintain their independence.

43

When I was a small boy and living on the family farm. The uncles used to joke about it.

However, according to wiki-
The Government of Canada and the Province of New Brunswick are officially bilingual in English and French, so *all signs issued or regulated by those governments are bilingual regardless of where they are located

So you are saying that despite that law- road signs in Canada are not bilingual ??

“Native Hawaiians (also known as Indigenous Hawaiians”

So I used Indigenous Hawaiians which your cite says is also correct.

Why are you arguing this point?

44

You’re not understanding the law correctly. The key words are “signs issued or regulated by those governments”. The federal government regulates very few road signs outside of federal properties and federally regulated lands like airports. When Ontario puts up bilingual traffic signs on provincial highways, they’re doing it voluntarily as a gesture of conciliation to their Quebec neighbours. When Quebec puts up French-only traffic signs, even replacing existing bilingual ones with French-only, they’re doing it because … reasons.

45

I’m not arguing about the term “indigenous.” To the extent that I’m even arguing, then what I am arguing about is your claim that the word “native” in reference to Native Hawaiians is “ambiguous.” It’s not.

I live in Hawai’i, and as someone who writes grant proposals to local institutions, it pays to be sensitive to language usage. Plus, the topic of language usage is inherently interesting to me. Hence, I bothered to comment.

That’s all.

46

Growing up in Ontario, I’d understood it as being for Franco-Ontarians, rather than Quebec being directly considered. The French/English line isn’t as sharp as the Quebec/Ontario border.

47

How many Franco-Ontarians do you imagine speak only French? Do you think they go around with little French-English phrasebooks so they can make themselves understood? How do they even manage to get an Ontario driver’s license, which is required if you’re a resident?

They’re clearly bilingual, and though the French signs may make them feel good, it’s just as much as a political statement as catering to the sensibilities of visiting Quebeckers.

48

As a linguist: No, the Javanese claim is bogus. Balinese is no more closely related to Javanese than it is to Malay/Indonesian. Each of these is in its own subgroup of Malayo-Polynesian.
Speaking of which, I bet even as a non-linguist, you note examples of the relationship between Indonesian languages and Hawaiian.

I found an explanation covering the closely related languages Balinese, Sasak, and Sumbawa:

These languages have similarities with Javanese, which several classifications have taken as evidence of a relationship between them. However, the similarities are with the “high” registers (formal language/royal speech) of Balinese and Sasak; when the “low” registers (commoner speech) are considered, the connection appears instead to be with Madurese and Malay.

49

Thank you for weighing in! That’s good to know about the Javanese claim.

Yes, there are a few similarities I’ve noticed between Indonesian and Hawaiian - though not many, since I haven’t undertaken a formal study of 'Ōlelo Hawai’i. The similarities tend to occur with very basic vocabulary, like the words for “five” and “fish.” I imagine that’s usually the case with languages that are somewhat distant in their relationships.

50

What’s a persuasive claim to independence? As far as I can tell, the Welsh haven’t been independent for at least 700 years at this point. Texas was an independent nation from 1836 until it was annexed by the United States in 1845. What makes Wales valid under your criteria but not Texas?

51

Yes , forced by law. Unless they pay to go to private schools. Eligibility to go to English public schools is tightly controlled.

The situation in Belgium is even more restrictive. The previously bilingual University of Leuven was forced to split in two and the French part moved to a brand new town in French Wallony, Louvain-la-neuve, each now unilingual. Every other book in the library was moved to the new university. Only Brussels was allowed to remain bilingual.

52

This whole thread is starting to sound like a re-invention of the old saw:

A country is just a language with an army.

53

And a language is just a dialect with an army.

54

As Orwell almost said:

One language one army good.
Two languages one army bad.

:grin:  

55

Thanks @CairoCarol and @Johanna!

The relationships between Austronesian languages are surprisingly transparent given the distances involved; they were noted by sailors as early as the 17th century, almost 200 years before Indo-European was recognized as a linguistic family. From Madagascar to New Zealand, a lot of the core vocabulary has survived, and the various cognates are still relatively easy to spot.

56

That sounds to me like, some time in the past, speakers of Javanese came into contact with speakers of Balinese and Sasak (or languages closely related to those), and for whatever local political reasons, the prestige culture was the Javanese one, and so the language used by the rulers was derived from Javanese while the language used by commoners was derived from Balinese and/or Sasnak. A similar phenomenon (though apparently not to the same degree) happened in English, where French-derived words are usually considered more high-class than Anglo-Saxon-derived words.

Am I on the right track with this?

57

Yeah, that’s what it looks like to me too.

58

Good question.

I grant that Texas has had (brief) experience as an independent state in the modern era, and Wales has not.

However, the Welsh have had a distinct national identity, language, and culture since the Middle Ages. The Texans do not.

(Still, Texas is a better candidate for independence than, say, a Roma or a Sami homeland would be. Texas has legally recognized borders, a relatively large and contiguous population, economic viability, and an extensive set of government institutions.)

59

I would not consider Gibraltarans a “people”. I was just there and they are as British as a Londoner.

There are many Texans that would disagree with you. LOL.

60

Road transport is a provincial thing, so very few road signs are under the jurisdiction of the Canadian government. Road signs in Saskatchewan are mostly in English, except around airports and federal bridges.

In Québec it’s basically the same thing, but reversed. You’ll find bilingual signage on the new Samuel-de-Champlain bridge and the Jacques-Cartier bridge, and around airports. Otherwise it’s just about 100% in French.

ETA: Of course the signs in Canada put emphasis on symbols and icons, so that most people can find their way even if they can’t pronounce every word.