Is that in response to my post?
I am not attacking anyone who says it *can *be a racist symbol, that’s obvious. That’s entirely different from it is a racist symbol. In order to prove that, you’re gonna have to show that no one after 2017 used it in any way but a racist way.
I’m not taking a side in this discussion yet, but if that is the only criteria couldn’t you say that someone using a swastika in a non-racist way after 1939 makes it a non-racist symbol?
Just so we are clear, you are claiming that this white supremacist who murdered 49 people in the name of white power, flashed this same sign at his trial as a fun little game of made you look?
I have no idea why he did it. Maybe he thinks it’s a white power symbol. Maybe he’s trolling people. Maybe he thought it was just something cool to do. Maybe he’s insane.
Why don’t you ask him?
By that standard, the biohazard symbol isn’t the biohazard symbol, because people use it as a purely decorative element sometimes.
Similarly, the word “The” isn’t the word the, by that standard, because the Japanese like to use English-language text as nonsensical (strictly, asemic) decoration on their products, and the word “The” appears in such decorations sometimes in a way which isn’t meant to be meaningful. (… and, believe me, it isn’t meaningful.)
Symbols only mean what they’re interpreted to mean, and all interpretation depends on context. That was one of the biggest, most insanely controversial things modern philosophy came up with in the 20th Century, and despite all of the people screaming it’s literally the end of the world, it’s true. Thinking anything has an absolute meaning independent of context is insane.
That is a ridiculous statement. Did the biohazard symbol start as a decoration? Has the biohazard symbol been widely used as a decoration since 1644, and just since 2017, when a hoax started to use it, was it used to note biohazards? It is still far more commonly used for decoration t that biohazards?
The OK sign was perfectly OK (pun intended) for** 373 years**. Then some assholes started a hoax, and now a few assholes use it for White power.
And we have to power to take it back.* You* can help take it back. We all can take it back by not assuming some kids goofing around are members of the KKK, and just assume they are some young guys goofing around*. Which they are.*
Stop clutching those pearls, folks. You dont get “woke” or SJW points by doing this.
Stop over reacting.
Stop making crazy assumptions.
Ignore the fuckers.
Everything you’re saying here applies equally well (and I do mean equally well) to the swastika.
No disrespect intended but I could not disagree more. The swastika has been a universal symbol of hatred since the WW2 era. No ambiguity whatsoever.
Except for the millions of Hindus around the world who still use it today.
Ignoring the almost 2 billion Hindus, Buddhists and Jains worldwide who would disagree with you. Certainly there could be some ambiguity. Japan is actually dealing with this right now in preparation for the 2020 Olympics.
Tangent: My mom has a lovely, hand-made, pre-WW2 quilt with swastikas on it. It’s a little jarring to see it in her house.
As has been alluded to, there are only two real differences between the swastika and the OK gesture:
- The swastika was co-opted a few decades earlier.
- The white supremacists who did the co-opting were more effective at white supremacing.
The thing is, though, that DrDeth’s position doesn’t care about trifling little details like those. He seems to be quite vehemently of the opinion that it’s not possible for white supremacists to take an existing symbol and make it their own. And that position, if true, would apply equally well to the swastika.
I mean, yes, that position is nakedly and obviously incorrect, and of course any symbol can be used by any group to mean anything that group wants, but that really does appear to be the hill he’s trying to die on.
His point was that it is in fact the regular OK gesture that is used by racists, and not the upside down, circle gesture used in the circle game. All of the pictures of white nationalists and neo-nazis flashing a “circle” all show them making the traditional OKAY gesture, held relatively high and proud (at least chest level or higher). The only evidence I’ve seen of a known white supremacist flashing a “circle game” gesture was one whose wrists were in cuffs and chained to his waist!
These are OKAY signs, though. Not “circle game” gestures. It is a completely different gesture.
I find this guy’s gesture the most curious. This is a circle game gesture. It is not an “okay” gesture. I think it’s possible he was playing the circle game, and in fact, most people I know figured that’s exactly what he was doing. Back when I saw it in March, that was my first thought as well. But now, I’m not so sure. Regardless, whether his intent with that gesture was “got you, fuckers! haw haw” or was “White Power” it doesn’t change the fact that he is definitely an alt-right, white supremacist. That fact is indisputable.
But with that picture alone, it is not conclusive evidence that white supremacists are using that particular gesture. However difficult it is to accept, it is not gaslighting for me to point out that because of the manner in which his hands were restrained, if he wanted to flash a traditional OKAY sign like the rest of the White Supremacists in the other photos, that’s as close as he could get to doing it. He couldn’t raise his arm, and he couldn’t rotate his hand to make a proper okay gesture. It’s possible what we saw was just his best attempt at making an “okay” gesture. At this point, I am most inclined to believe that this was the case. He wanted to flash a traditional OKAY sign, but that’s the best he could do.
So, I think it’s blatantly obvious that white supremacists have adopted the Okay gesture. I am also willing to accept that they’ve adopted the circle game gesture as well, but I’d have to see it being used by a white supremacist whose hands are not handcuffed and belly-chained. Until then, I still think we’re discussing two distinctly different gestures. Are there any photos of neo-nazis marching while making below-the-waist circles?
The Anti-Defamation League has a good, unbiased assessment of the recent OKAY gesture meaning and controversy. They even mention the “Circle Game”:
Most importantly, the Anti-Defamation League has this to say about associating every OKAY sign or “Circle Game” gesture as identifying a white supremacist:
That’s good advise.
Really?:eek: The Nazis started using the swastika as a hoax?:eek: And they only used it for two years? :eek:
:rolleyes:
Not to mention the swastika was pretty unknown in Europe before the Nazis used it. It wasnt a common, everyday symbol in Europe. Yes, there was some use in Asia and some North American tribes to a small extent, which very likely no one in Germany even had a inkling.
So, then- not equally well, not at all.
It is possible. If we let them, and you guys here are doing a great job of helping the white power guys corrupt a perfectly nice symbol.
Equally well as far as YOUR argument is concerned. (And seriously, “only used it for two years”? Did you think that through?)
Do you have some reason why I couldn’t get a bunch of people and decide that we’re going to interpret the upraised middle finger as code of “one of us!”?
Great cites there, Bear_Nenno
In all seriousness, I don’t see how we can possibly stop them, unless we somehow stopped them from communicating, appearing in pictures, or did something unsavory to their OK-symbol-making appendages.
It’d be like trying to stop slang.
Fair enough. In almost all the images I can find of undisputed white supremacists using the sign, they are pointing their fingers up, sometimes with their palms toward their bodies and sometimes with palms outward. I accept that the circle game is a separate gesture, and the evidence that white supremacists are using it is inconclusive at best. I think it’s reasonable to consider the possibility that white supremacists may use the cover of the circle game to give themselves plausible deniability when they’re signaling their views. But I accept that, in the vast majority of the cases when someone is doing what looks like playing the circle game, they are playing the circle game.
Thank you. I’m glad you can accept that it’s not a 4chan hoax that white supremacists flash the OK sign to signal their beliefs. I’ve lost track of where you were on that question at the beginning of this thread, but I’m glad you’re dealing with the same reality as most of the rest of us are.
Again, fair enough. I haven’t found a clear-cut case yet. There were the cops in Jasper, Alabama last year who did fingers-down circle gestures on camera after a drug bust. They were suspended, but it’s not clear to me that they were established to have been signaling white power beliefs. But seeing as how it’s a bunch of white cops in their paramilitary garb, standing around a shack after a bust, I’m skittish about this one.
I am beginning to come round to the view that the bozos at the Army-Navy game were more likely than not playing the circle game. I still hold that it’s not unreasonable to raise the question and to expect the leadership to look into it (which they are). But if one of the criteria of the circle game is that the hand is held below the waist, I would point out that none of the gestures caught on camera at the game were below the waist of the person doing it. On the contrary, they had to extend their arms into the frame of the camera. So, while I am leaning toward the “circle game” explanation, I don’t think it’s the slam-dunk case some in this thread are arguing it is.
I can’t speak for anyone else but I don’t think I’ve jumped to conclusions. I’ve consistently said it needs to be investigated, and I’ve only gotten pissed when I’ve been accused of “pearl clutching” or being gulled by 4chan. At least we agree that white supremacists using the OK sign is a real thing and that there is at least ambiguity around its use in other contexts. And from your previous posts I know you agree that we don’t want white supremacists in the military. So… that leaves us in the same place, I think. The two institutions need to investigate this rather than just shrugging it off as an obvious example of the circle game.
Fair?