What should I do about my mom's bank accounts? (She is suddenly erratic)

In My Humble Opinion
1

As briefly and impersonally as possible, need advice on a banking crisis. I’m an only child. My mom (age 80, in another state 2000 miles away) has online access to a checking account which is jointly in both our names, as well as a savings account which is hers only. For 20 years or so, she’s been spending down her meager fortune by periodically transfering in chunks from Savings to Checking as needed to pay the bills. She keeps the Checking balance fairly low, just high enough to float a month or two of expenses.

She’s becoming mentally erratic, a phenomenon whose pace has recently increased, and two things have happened in very rapid succession. First, last week she apparently called the bank to say her checking account was compromised, and they responded by closing it and opening a new one for her (still in both our names). She categorically denies having done this, but my local branch banker told me it was either her, or someone impersonating her. My hunch is she did it, but there’s a wrinkle – we’ve got a grifter lurking about. It feels like the setup to a con. That said, the new checking account is OK, it’s only got the same 2 names on it, it’s got all the money from the old checking account transferred in.

But: this morning, she panicked because all her money was gone. It wasn’t; she just didn’t scroll down the webpage to view the account it’s now in, the new Checking account.

Then, later this morning – as she told me an hour ago – she looked at her large-ish Savings balance, every dollar she has, basically, and decided the bank had made an error. All her money – ALL of it – has always been in Checking, she said, although that’s very untrue. She “fixed” this by transfering her entire Savings account into Checking.

Meanwhile there is a person who is grifting her. The form of the grift is convincing her to write a breathtaking amount of checks for very modest services – think, $100-$200 to drive her to the Walgreens, repeat every day. This has been going on for a few years. It’s my mom’s choice to spend her money on this person, and there’s nothing technically criminal so far, but my hunch is the grifter suddenly needs more money, and is convincing Mom to make these banking changes so that she can get her hands on the whole pot, via an erased and rewritten check. I’m certain she has the online banking passwords anyway, though, and has had for a long time. My mom naturally trusts her absolutely.

I’m able to keep eyes on this now-flush checking account as often as I like, but I’m filled with dread the balance is going to drop to $0 at any moment. Something very weird is going on, and Mom ought to know not to make huge financial moves like that without discussing them with me. And she’s not tracking reality anymore.

SO – here is the opinion I’m seeking – without respect to the personal dynamic, would it make good financial sense for me to take advantage of the newly flush checking account, which is legally my money too, and siphon it off into an account under my sole control? Then dole it back out to her as needed to pay the bills, including the checks to the grifter, I don’t even care. And yes there will be horrific personal repercussions if I do this, which I don’t have time or inclination to discuss here – I’m looking for banking advice only.

Need answer fast, because I’m strongly considering going into the bank first thing in the morning to do this. I’ll frame the conversation with Mom AFTER getting her life savings under sane protection. What say you all? Thanks!

2

Yes. Transfer to your sole account.

I would do that based solely on the info you have written and intentionally withheld.

You can always put it all back at any time.

3

My late wife as an attorney who made a career working mostly with small banks on operational problems like this. I’ve heard your story second hand a hundred times. Many times the child has Mom’s best interests at heart. Many other times, the child is simply a thief. The bank has a statutory obligation to prevent theft. And depending on the state may have additional obligations relative to reporting suspected elder abuse.

Financially your proposed plan is both legal and smart.

How Mom will react emotionally to your unilateral action is another matter. And with the grifter whispering (or shouting since she’s probably hard of hearing too) in her other ear, this may go real badly for you vs Mom.

As to the bank …
Doing this unilaterally without the bank’s awareness and acquiescence is asking for all the money to be impounded until a court can settle the facts. Are you able to support Mom from your own funds until this is straightened out?

If her bank is small enough that you can talk to a branch worker on the phone, please do that ASAP before doing anything else. They hate being blindsided and will probably be a lot more on-board with your plan if you can show them the pattern of abuse from the grifter and point to the absence of any historical abusive behavior by you. It may still get ugly, but you starting out from a position where they at least suspect you’re part of the solution, not part of the problem, will be hugely to your/her benefit.

The bank will have a compliance officer who’s job (with their attorney) is to make the call on whether they’ll play along with you or freeze everything and let god (the courts) sort it out. Talking with that person ahead of time is the sole key to success for you.

Good luck. Seriously, not snarkily. This is not an easy problem to have a good outcome from.

4

If you’re going to do this, do not transfer the balance into your own, existing acount and mix it with your own money. Open a special account for the purpose and designate it “Mom’s money” or something of the kind.

Would it be possible that this account could be a joint savings account, but operating on terms that transactions required authorisation from both of you, rather than either of you? Then you could if necessary control the rate at which she transferred the money back to her checking account.

5

If you’re comfortable sharing, it would be helpful to know an approximate amount of money involved here. If she lost it all, how would she support herself? Does she have any other sources of money?

You might want to talk to an elder care attorney. It sounds like you might have a case to be granted financial power of attorney.

I would think it’s prudent to take most of the money out of the checking account and put it in a new account. Do whatever you can to make it clear that you are protecting this money and that it’s for your mom’s benefit just in case things end up in court.

6

Have her declared incompetent and yourself named as guardian. Of course, that will take longer than it takes her to write a check.

I would agree to transferring the $ to a new “escrow” account. I know nothing about how banks work; as such I can’t offer an opinion as to seeking the bank’s cooperation. Since you are on the account I’m not sure why that would be needed.

Good luck.

7

Thank you, I’m going to do this.

Yes. I’ll do this at the local branch (this is a national bank that has branches in both our states). I was in there last week when the funny business started, and got to know a banker who kindly spent 1.5 hours with me. I gave her a heads-up I’m coming in without an appointment, and I’ll go through the teller line and wait as long as necessary to speak with someone to explain what’s going on. It will be fastest, most transparent, and most reliable to open a new account in person and initiate the transfer. If they push back, or advise me differently based on what’s happened, I’ll possibly back down, but I do have the legal right to do anything I want with the money in the joint account.

And, I believe, the responsibility. 20 years ago, when she set up a joint checking account, she asked me to look after her when the need arose. What she did yesterday was 100% irrational and it would be wrong not to step in. We can have the fight later, and believe me, it’ll be a big one. That’s OK, so long as most of her remaining money is protected from the grifter.

The grifter has the online passwords for everything – she helps my mom see the computer screen. (Mom will hand her her username/password book and ask her to read them off as she blindly types.) Crucially, there also exists a debit card that’s linked to the now-flush Checking account, and if my mom didn’t write the PIN on the card itself, I’d be shocked. This situation can’t stand for even one day. I’ve always had a responsibility to prevent my mom from harming herself as she enters senility, and that responsibility has very suddenly roared up to greet me. It’s time to act.

Yes. She’s incompetent, clearly, but when she wants to be she’s suddenly sharp as a tack. She was trained as a big-city lawyer, and I can just see the courtroom scene where she SCHOOLS the rural judge in her extreme competence. She’s got this selective helplessness thing going on, it’s weird, but I wouldn’t win a court battle just yet.

Yes, it will be kept entirely separate in its own account. I want an account at the same bank, anyway, for convenience and transparency. I don’t otherwise have one there, so I’ll open one.

I’m willing to talk about it, but it’s a very long and very sad story, beyond the scope of this thread. There’s not much money left; she’s spent it all and she’ll be stone broke in a couple of years. (She literally suffers from delusions of grandeur on top of everything else; she thinks she’s rich as God.) I can’t afford to support her, which makes it all the more important for the little money she has to be protected in a savings account that’s safe from strangers. (Mom trusts EVERYBODY.) I have financial POA already, though I don’t need it to withdraw from the joint checking account.

Many thanks for all the responses.

8

I won’t repeat my opinions as to infirm elderly. It can be challenging to protect older folk from themselves. Her doctor could be of assistance.

IME, lacking a legal judgment of incompetence, all other efforts are problematic. Possibly the only “good” outcome is for you to ensure that you not inflict such stress on your loved ones as you age.

9

You should be prepared for the consequences from her when you take the money out. Understandably, she will be upset when she sees all the money gone. Understandably, she won’t take it well when you tell her what you did. If she’s not thinking clearly, she’s going to think something like you stole the money. She may never forgive you. But that might be what’s necessary in order to ensure her money lasts as long as possible. You may have to get in the mindset of thinking of yourself as her conservator rather than her child.

You should put some thought into what happens when the money runs out. Whether that happens today or in two years, she’ll have to have some means of support.

One thing you might want to look into is putting the money into a trust. The trust can be set up with you as the trustee and her as the beneficiary. A trust will spell out out what the money is used for. The trustee has a a fiduciary responsibility to ensure the specifications of the trust are followed correctly. Putting the money in a trust will look better to the courts rather than just having it in a normal account in your name.

10

These two things are contradictory, and it seems to me that in a courtroom, you have the upper hand here. You have hard facts… She has only emotions.
She may be able to speak with competence, but you have precise numbers and hard proof of her INcompetence.

Show the judge the dollar amounts, the number of withdrawals, and the dwindling balance. She is rapidly spending herself into bankruptcy, with no rational plan for her future. She is clearly incompetent financially. Even if she speaks articulately ., she is not “sharp as a tack” .

11

This is elder abuse and I wouldn’t take it so lightly.

Agreed that the OP should open a new account to hold these funds. I would also leave some money in the old account for Mom to do her normal level of spending. Say, one month’s cash flow. Protect the majority of her assets but don’t infringe on Mom’s independence more than necessary. If she can continue to act as normal with some normal amount of money, she won’t have as much reason to object to what you did with the bulk of it.

A POA allows the OP to do what he/she needs to do. It doesn’t stop mom from doing things on her own that might hurt herself financially. The OP needs to worry about both.

This might make sense but it sounds like the OP’s mom has sufficient competency that this could be an uphill battle. It might make more sense to work with mom to get her to come to her senses while the OP limits the damage she can do in the meantime.

12

Based on the constraints of your OP, I gave you a quick and direct answer.

However, it’s clearly more complicated and I would definitely listen to the rest of the advice in this thread. I think it’s said very well by LSLGuy and others, but what is legal and what a bank policy will allow do not match. Or, just because it’s legal does not mean the bank will let you do it.

As an analogy, it’s legal to buy booze when you’re 21. But the store will never sell you booze without an ID. Even though you’re of age (legal), they won’t sell it (store policy). Banks are like that but on steroids.

Good luck! I think talking it through and transparency with the bank is good.

13

Well put. I don’t think she’ll think I stole it, but she’s going to be extremely affronted. I’m going to frame it as restoring a situation that’s existed for 20 years that she got temporarily confused about, with most of the money in Savings and just operating expenses in Checking, with transfers in as needed (which I’ll have to do myself in the future).

Haha, yes, actually I have. :slight_smile: There is so, so much to the whole story of Mom’s Finances than I’m prepared to go into. She’s squandered a huge fortune and still lives like a queen, but we’re past the point of discussing it. It’s been literally 50 years in the making; she’s just lived a bit longer than she intended to. Her money choices, always foolish, have now become extremely risky. But yeah, I’ll be putting myself in the role of the person who doles out her money to her as needed, made more complicated by the fact she thinks she has a huge amount. That’s going to be very ugly. Then, there’s only enough left for 2 years at her burn rate. What happens then is a completely different topic, even uglier.

Oh God, not another Trust. There have been quite a few over the years, all of them more trouble than they were worth. But what would the courts be looking at?

Very bad things are going to happen within 2 years no matter what. I’m just trying to see if we can make it that long.

Everything I’ve ever read says that if she knows what day of the week it is, what state she lives in, what’s 2+2, she’s legally competent to do whatever she wants with her assets. (@Dinsdale, it sounds like you have interesting stories?) She’s always been the type who can take care of herself just fine, thank-you-very-much, except when it bores her, then she becomes helpless. But I’m getting way beyond the scope of the thread.

Sigh. I don’t. Again, there are issues here way beyond the scope. My mom adores writing checks to deserving people, she always has, and that’s why she’s run out of money. At least the grifter brings her food twice a day, and takes her to appointments etc. My mom has made it abundantly clear to me that the grifter is an Angel Among Us, and deserves much more than she’s paid. Ethically speaking, it’s clearly a case of undue influence, yes, but until/unless a court rules someone incompetent, they can absolutely choose who they give their money to. Mom’s been giving her money away her whole life; it’s her way, and people see her a mile coming. Unfortunately I don’t believe the grifter has done anything illegal. I’m always on the lookout.

Interesting piece here (NYT gift link).

They’re Giving Scammers All Their Money. The Kids Can’t Stop Them.

One son couldn’t prevent his father from giving about $1 million in savings to con artists, including one posing as a female wrestling star. The two became estranged.

14

Yes of course. I’m going to restore it to what it was 2 days ago, with about 2 month’s expenses in Checking.

This x100. That’s all we’re doing here today. I have an appointment with the banker in 3 hours. I’ll lay it all out, and hopefully get some additional good advice to go with all the good advice here.

15

Otherwise she WILL be scammed out of it as soon as she gets the phone call.
Does she have any bills that come automatically out of her accounts?

Will you need to get a conservatorship to do that? Or a power of attorney?

Would this create problems if she dies and there are other heirs? Do you have brothers & sisters that should be in the loop on this?

16

The difference to the court is that the trust is a legal document which clearly spells out what the trust is for, who the trust administrator is, and who is the beneficiary of the trust. That’s a lot more legally binding than an account in your name that you promise to use for your mom’s benefit. If it’s a regular account in your name, the court realizes you can do anything with the money that you want. If your mom takes you to court, the court is less likely to think you’re trying to scam your mom if the money is in a trust.

17

Ah. I see what you’re getting at now. I don’t think she has the will to bear to bring me to court if she wanted to, sad to say. She’s just going to cry and cry. All made harder by the fact that while I’ll take good care of her money, there just isn’t really much left. She’ll think I’m denying her, when in fact she really will have spent every penny.

18

So when the money is gone, then what? Will anyone be around to do these tasks for your mom? Will it fall on you?

It sound like the grifter is going to get the money, so perhaps the best bet is to make the grifter work as long as possible for it (avoiding the one day big payday, in which the grifter takes the funds and disappears). It’s not the worst thing in the world, especially if you don’t have a good answer for replacing the functionality of the grifter.

19

Read the OP. Second sentence:

20

Get some info on what in home care costs. Someone who can drive and pick her food up.
It ain’t cheap.

But $100-$200 to drive her to the store?
That’s highway robbery. Literally.

Tell the Angel Among us what will be her pay. And her duties.
If she goes nuts on you you’ll know her game.

If she can’t hang for that, tell her she’s visiting and working for free, then.
If she’s the angel, (or not) your Mom thinks she is, you’ll find out, pretty quickly.