I’ve noticed that holding my out at shoulder height is uncomfortable. It’s one of the many simple things we do in Tai Chi class and the only one that I can’t seem to do.
I swim, but my stroke of choice is breaststroke, so I do a lot of “pulling down” movement (like if I was using a seated lat machine) and basically nothing I do in the pool or in life is “pushing up” so I think whatever muscles are involved in “pushing up” are pretty fucked. I feel the pain in the top of my shoulders and my neck when trying to hold my arms out.
I don’t have pain when not trying to hold my arms out, like when just sitting around. I am pretty sure it’s not a nerve issue, just under-used muscles.
Here’s the kicker, though - I’ve got a fairly bad case of golfer’s elbow, which is tennis elbow but on the inside of my elbow - from years of walking my dogs and letting them pull on my left arm. I’m working through that by avoiding using that arm during walks, and wearing a band when swimming and doing Tai Chi. But, this injury precludes me from simply picking up something heavy and doing arm raises, which I suspect would be the right exercise for my shoulders. I just did a test and doing an arm raise with a soup can was fine, but a case of pop was excruciating on my elbow.
So, does anyone have any suggestions of what I can do to strengthen my deltoids (I assume that’s the muscle I’m looking for) without putting stress on my elbow?
You should see a doctor before doing any exercises. What you describe does not sound like lack of strength. It sounds like something is wrong in the shoulder joint or there is some sort of muscle injury. You can make things much worse by trying to exercise it better on your own. The additional stress will likely exacerbate the problem.
One thing tricky about the shoulder is that there are so many components to making it work. There are a lot of muscles that have to work together for proper movement. If you injure something, the other components try to pick up the slack. But the problem is that the injured thing weakens and doesn’t get back to full strength, so the other parts continue to compensate. What needs to happen in that case is physical therapy targeted at making the weak component strong.
Is the pain from holding your arms out in front of you (which would indicate a deficiency in anterior, or front delt strength)? Or does the pain come when you hold your arms straight out to your sides (which would indicate middle delt weakness)?
There are different exercises for both of the muscle groups, as well as for the posterior delts. You can also do compound lifts, which incorporate all three heads to a certain degree.
However, for the sake of simplicity, ill stick with (mostly) isolation exercises in my reply here. For anterior delts, front raises are what you would need to do. Take a light dumbbell, no more than say 10lbs? and hold in down in front of you, arm straight (or elbow slightly bent). Slowly lift the dumbbell straight up until the dumbbell (and your arm) are even with your shoulder. 12-15 reps per set would be my recommendation.
Lateral raises are for middle delts. Using the same weight (maybe slightly less) dumbbells, start with the weight held down at your side. Slowly raise your arm laterally until it is even with your shoulder. Same rep range.
As far as compound lifts, shoulder raises with dumbbells would probably be best for what you need. If you have weak or injured shoulders, start with dumbbells held with arms at 90 degree angle from upper to lower arm. Raise all the way up and lower back down to 90 degrees. 10-12 reps is good here.
Ive got horrible elbow tendonitis myself and have found that a combination of regular icing and use of a simple elbow tendonitis strap do wonders. I even sleep with the strap on.
ETA: upon reading the reply above me, i have to agree that seeong a doctor before anything else is the way to go.
I have to push back on some of this. I have had torn rotator cuffs for 15 years. In that time, ive come very, very close to surgery 4 different times. However, given the fact that i use a wheelchair-and NEED both arms at all times-I backed out every time and just tried to deal with it on my own.
And today i can say i am glad i never had the surgery. A combination of backing off of exercises and activities that put extra stress and strain on the damaged area of my shoulders (such as bench pressing and certain other chest exercises, eliminating as much unneeded pushing of my chair as possible, etc.) as well as focusing on exercises that strenghtened muscles that helped compensate for the damage and keep me strong (shoulder exercises like Arnold presses) has made my shoulders healthier today than at any point in my 19 years pushing a chair.
Now i still have shoulder problems (tears dont heal on their own), which sometimes can really flair up. But overall, my body has successfully adapted and compensated for my dual rotator cuff tears.
This is all true, and consulting with a physician who specializes in sports physiology may be useful, but it is often quite difficult to correctly diagnose shoulder injuries or deficiencies. If a physician refers you to a orthopedic surgeon I would highly recommend that you get a second or even third opinion as well as doing your own research on rehabilitation options because the history of orthopedic repairs on the shoulder joint is replete with surgical treatments with little basis in evidence which have later been found to do more harm than good. Unless there is a clear injury to the shoulder joint that cannot be rehabilitated by exercise, surgery should be considered a last option.
There are some good online resources for performing shoulder rehabilitation and strengthening, both using tools like dumbbells or kettlebells, and just using body weight. I found that doing regular exercises with a moderate weight kettlebell (12-16 kg) like armbars and circle rolls did wonders not only for the shoulder that likes to spontaneously dislocated but also mid-to-upper back issues and completely eliminated neck popping. You can start with lower weight but it does need to be enough to be stressing, and if you have elbow tendiopathy that may be prohibitive until you deal with that issue.
If you can’t manage to lift a useful amount of weight, here is a recommendation for exercises to improve shoulder mobility and reduce pain. I am not affiliated with GMB but I’ve used a number of their training routines, and the site has a lot of free resources and basic tutorials that can be useful. One of the principals is a sports physiotherapist and another is a former gymnast who has had to overcome the injuries that typically go along with that sport, and so they are very focused on mobility, correct form, and paying attention to how your body feels rather than just trying to push through an exercise routine to get a specific number of reps. They often have recommendations for how to deal with certain issues, and their videos often feature people with different body types and different ranges of mobility along with regular caution to do what feels best rather than trying to push yourself to get the same range of flexibility as demonstrated, so it is really good for people who aren’t athletes or who are dealing with previous injuries.
That’s a good question, thanks for bringing it up. It’s when I hold my arms out straight in front of me. There’s a particular warm-up move that we do that is simple as heck - put both arms out forward and wiggle your fingers and then “dance” your outstretched arms in a semi-circle. After about 15 seconds I’m ready to put my arms down. I feel weakness in the tops of my shoulders. I’m literally half the age of everyone else in the class (weekday mornings at the Rec Center, y’all!) and it pisses me off that I’m not able to hold my arms out straight for any length of time!
Putting my arms out to the side feels fine. I can actually feel my back muscles holding my arms up (ok, my back muscles and my back fat.)
Looks like this is the one for me.
So, doing any of these exercises sounds like it’s going to irritate my elbow… should I just do them while wearing the brace and ice afterwards and deal with it? I’ve gotten the impression that this elbow problem probably isn’t going to go away, but I am actively trying to give it time to heal up (I’ve been “keeping off it” for about a month now).
Thanks, Stranger. Those look like good stretches I can do without weight.
I definitely don’t feel like I have an injury. I’ve had a shoulder injury before, from previous forays into martial arts, and that was a whole fucking thing. This just feels like uniform weakness in muscles sets I don’t use enough. My legs are strong because I walk on them a lot, an my back is pretty strong from swimming. But I feel there’s absolutely nothing I do that ever gets the juices flowing in what **Ambi **has identified as my anterior deltoids.
Your post could have been written by me. I’m currently going to physical therapy because of a shoulder impingement and tendinitis in my elbow.
In my case I can raise my arm straight up if I move it forward to get there (think Hitler salute), but when I raise it to the side (like I’m making a T with my arms) pain shoots down my shoulder. With the elbow, I guess it’s Tennis Elbow since it’s on the outside; however it seems like same symptoms. Weak hand strength, etc.
I originally went to the dr for the elbow, thinking it was related to the shoulder pain. Alas he was an elbow specialist, and also wanted me to see a shoulder specialist. Which I decided not to do at this time. Fortunately when I to my prescribed physical therapy, they said they have to consider them both as they share day to day tasks; and I couldn’t really fix one without taking the other into consideration.
Not sure of your financial situation, but I’d recommend Dr, followed by PT once the Dr determines it’s not a rotator cuff injury needing surgery.
That being said here are the exercises my PT has me doing.
Elbow: Hand Exercise Ball
My PT has me doing these exercisesas well.
And finally I do curls with a 2 lb weight. Where my palm is facing up on the up lift, and then I rotate an pivot my palm down on the down motion.
As you imply, a lot of these joint pains are caused by muscle imbalances. If you do one movement (pulling down while swimming) frequently, these muscles get stronger and can overpower the underdeveloped antagonists.
You see it a lot in weightlifters who do a lot of bench presses (vertical pushing) but not enough (or any) vertical pulling exercises such as one-arm, barbell rows or various types of chin-ups.
So it might be helpful to get some light dumbbells or kettlebells - and I would start very light at 2.5-5 lbs., getting heavier after successful sets. You want to do kettle ball swings, overhead presses, lateral raises and movements where you move the weight so that your arms alternate between making T Y and W shapes. If you have access to a cable machine at a gym, doing facepulls and woodchops and pulls at a variety of angles may help. A machine to do posterior flyes might also help.
Of course, you would need a physical exam to determine the exact problem, of which there are quite a few (impingement, calcinosis, tendinopathies, imbalances, arthritides, neuropathies, etc.)
Of course, push-ups and bench pressing might help too.
The elbow pain complicates things, of course. But maybe this can be worked around. The key to all these exercises is to start very lightly, by all means start with a one or two pound weight like a soup can. A lot of uninjured professional athletes have relatively weak shoulders and a 5 lb. weight can be challenging with some shoulder exercises. (The world record for holding weights in an iron cross is surprisingly modest).
The elbows themselves may have an imbalance between forearm flexors and extensors. Again, a doctor or physio could rule out other diagnoses. But exercises like hammer curls and reverse grip dumbbell presses might also help.
Looks like you’ve got the “see a doctor” part under control… Shoulder injury + taking it easy to let it heal = frozen shoulder. At least, in my case. Twice. I couldn’t do anything with confidence with my arm if my elbow was at or above shoulder height, and certain ranges of motions weren’t available.
I’ll say that if you feel you need to exercise in the meantime, if the soup can works for you, use it. You obviously shouldn’t jump straight into a full case of soda at this point. Find out what range is comfortable for you and work with it, but you should probably get a doctor’s opinion first.
As a long-time and current instructor of Tai Chi, I’m going to [gently] scream at you a bit.
Every time I get new students in class I tell everyone that the movements are neither complex nor strenuous but remembering them and remembering sequences isn’t going to happen over night. Then I emphasize that they should speak up IMMEDIATELY if any of the movements they’re doing cause them pain* of any kind. Yeah, it’s a martial art, but the idea is for the technique to cause pain in the opponent, not the practitioner.
So my gentle scolding is that you should have said something earlier. Then again, maybe this just started happening and it’s never too late to speak up.
The main point of speaking up immediately is to give the instructor the opportunity to see what you’re doing (at the time you’re doing it) and make sure you’re doing it right# – and adjust your body/posture/joints/angles so they’re correct. But another strong point of speaking up immediately is to give the instructor the ability to modify techniques (within reason) for you and your unique physique and its limitations.
If you haven’t already, drag your instructor aside before or after class and reveal that you’re experiencing discomfort(s) with certain motions/techniques. If your instructor is worth his/her weight in Chi, he or she will recognize the issue and be able to suggest different ways of moving in order to achieve the desired martial results – and/or suggest helpful exercises & treatments and/or suggest you consult a physician. Just like a really good physician knows when to refer you to a specialist, a really good trainer should knows when to refer you to a physician for dealing with the aches and pains associated with your training.
As much as I revere and respect my fellow dopers, I really strongly discourage the solicitation (or acceptance) of advice regarding medical problems anywhere on the Internet. What works for Jack might not work for Frank for any number of different reasons. Instead, go see a doctor (preferably one who already knows you well) and let that doctor ask questions and/or manipulate your body to get answers so therapies and treatments can be customized to your situation.
–G!
*And I warn them that they’re waking up a few muscles which will complain a bit in the beginning but that type of pain will stop when the muscles get accustomed to the motions.
#Of course, the repetitious nature of the training is (like any other martial art) also designed so the instructor can help you adjust your technique to be more accurate and effective over time.