I’m asking you to speak for yourself.
What do you think makes a man a man? Does Tammy Thomas have a penis? Testicles? Does Tammy Thomas identify as a man?
She’s pretty masculine looking. That doesn’t mean she’s a man, practically or otherwise.
I can’t make myself into a man by taking steroids.
Please try looking at the whole picture of why I have posted. My intention is not to disparage someone solely based on looks. I have posted because she was doping and she transformed herself. Her appearance IS a consequence of her choice to take drugs. I don’t know how I can make this any clearer. Perhaps if you give me some information about your background in sport/doping, I can try to explain things more clearly.
To everyone who reads this, I am a peaceful guy and rarely talk badly about others. I did not post comments about Tammy Thomas in the link I provided. In fact, the SDMB is the only message board I am part of. I’m here just to share what is wrong with doping in sport.
I am sure Tammy is well aware of what has happened to her. I too am a cyclist and you don’t reach top condition without being aware about every aspect of your body. If you are unsure of what it is like to train to be a cyclist, please ask and I will try to explain.
I do not wish to get into a protracted debate about whether or not you can talk about someone’s physical appearance. If you would like to do that, please start a thread and I will join in. Doping is a serious offense and you cannot sugar coat it if you want to talk about it.
But all you succeeded in doing was precisely that, what with the “shudder” and talking about giving men “nightmares” and saying she’s practically a man.
Got any ‘before’ pictures? How do you know that her appearance is a function of doping? How do you know when she started doping? When did she stop?
You are basing a lot on one photograph.
I’ll get right on that.
Are these average women Armenian? Young? Old? Ethiopian? Icelandic? Truck drivers? Mushers? Headmistresses? Do you know any average women? You do? Do you get laid very often?
jsgoddess, if you will reread my original post, you will see why she is masculine looking. I have said that she is practically a man, not a full man. I cannot say for sure if she is one because I don’t have access to her medical records other than to reports of her doping offenses. If you compare her to trans gendered people, it is not difficult to envision the similarities (I’m okay with trans gendered people, don’t flame me, please!).
Whether or not Tammy is a full man or not is moot to me because she has done enough damage to herself. Also, please try to see whole perspective: There is a whole world of doping out there and this is just the top.
I wouldn’t have made this thread if Tammy hadn’t got caught for taking steroids. I have an open mind and can accept many things.
To everyone: Please don’t portray me as a shallow sexist because I do not appreciate it when I have come her to talk about doping in sport. Not everyone is as polite as I am and I can easily write with more hatred.
I do not care why she is masculine looking. Her being masculine looking is not my concern. She can be masculine looking all day long, and she will still not be a man, practically or not, by using steroids. You are trying to insult her looks and her person by saying she’s disgusting (“shudder” “nightmare”) instead of sticking to the facts.
I can’t help if you’ve got some ick in your system regarding masculine looking women. I guarantee you there are women who do not use steroids who end up looking very masculine. There are also women who were born into male bodies. Attacking someone because they look manly is a shallow and stupid angle.
jsgoddess, please stop posting. The “why she is masculine looking” is a major point of this thread.
No. I don’t think I’ll stop posting, since I’m addressing this thread and breaking no rules.
Can you talk about her use of steroids without shrieking about how hideous she is? If you aren’t going to have sex with her, her looks shouldn’t matter to you. Can you talk about the effect on the sport without referencing her looks? You have yet to do that. It seems that her looks are the most important part to you, causing you actual distress.
If you saw a before picture and she looked much the same way, what would this thread be about? I’m guessing it would be about what an ugly woman she is, not about doping.
I’m pretty sure I asked for one of those.
Yes, you did. I’m doing a little reading on her now, and I’m not finding many pictures at all that really show what she ever looked like.
Except you have, by virtue of mentioning her appearance, which has no effect on her performance as an athlete. It may be a clue that she uses steroids, but your editorial comments (SHUDDER!, etc.) have no place in an examination of steroid use in women’s sports, which is what you’re trying to do. I doubt anyone here supports the use of steroids in athletics (I know I don’t), but the emphasis you’ve placed on Thomas’ physical appearance detracts greatly from your argument and your question, for the reasons both jsgoddess and Contrapuntal have put forth.
It doesn’t matter how nice you are or how gentle you usually are, as you haven’t shown yourself in that light in this thread.
I also think you’ll find that many photos of women have been highly retouched to show youthful, perfectly smooth skin. There are plenty of women out there with “coarse” skin or acne, and also plenty out there with facial hair and wrinkles.
Oh, and this?
This is something that will not help out here at all. The onus is on you to effectively frame your question/argument, and if someone comes along who is able to argue against you, then you either need to defend your argument, rephrase, or back down. jsgoddess hasn’t broken any rules and she is free to critique your argument. The only person who can tell her to stop posting is a mod.
The “why” may be a major part of the thread you want this to be, but Thomas’ looks are not what make her a cheater, i.e. unethical.
I’m not unsympathetic to your point (Steroids in athletics are bad, and detract from the contest.), but you’ve presented it very poorly and a little bit chauvinistically (Paraphrase: “This woman has turned herself into a man with steroids! She’s ugly and doesn’t match with my idea of a woman. By the way, steroids are bad.”). Perhaps you’d like to rephrase your argument and tell us either what impact her looks have on her ability to compete or leave the looks behind and tell us in a little bit more detail the detractions of steroid use in professional athletics, with a special emphasis on cycling? There is a point lurking in your OP that most people will agree with, but it has been obscured.
OMG, I’m gonna have to ride my bike off a mountain 25 years sooner than I thought! :smack: I feel like I’m talking to my sister. She is intelligent but cannot let go of an argument and doesn’t respond to logic. :smack:
Excuse me while I go book a trip to France.
I think we will have to agree to disagree here.
I don’t think anyone in their right mind would claim that steroids turn women into men. They don’t. And your statement that she’s (your pronoun) “ambiguous-looking” is just . . . well, ambiguous.
Just wondering, Chasing Dreams, do you believe there are drugs that would turn you into a woman?
<<Shudder!>>
Must…resist…urge to…bbq… :smack:
Try giving some steroids to a girl you know and see what you end up with. Then all you need to do is surgically form a penis. Think gender reassignment surgery.
“She’s” is an abbreviation for “she is”. That’s (That is) not ambiguous.
I feel like a guy that has just walked into the middle of a feminist rally. 
Mods, please lock this thread. I’m going to take this to a more open minded and informed forum.
If this is your idea of logic–it isn’t surprising your sister kicks your butt! What are you 12 (with full apologies to those 12 year olds who can actually present an argument!)? OMG? What the hell is that? What does booking a trip to France have to do with anything?
What logic have you presented? You presented a poorly phrased idea–got called on it and now are falling back on ‘agree to disagree’. You haven’t even started any argument with anyone. You got called on your premise, have zip to support it and haven’t advanced any argument–any argument at all. Your best bet at this point is to cede the argument.
panache45, are you trying to attack me personally? Do you even know how steroids work? Do you even play any sports?
hey why don’t you try the Pit? Just saying–I bet you get a great reception there!
You know your premise that steroids are bad is a good start–you need to work on our delivery son–just some friendly advice-what you do with it is in your court
Nope. If you want to talk about steroid abuse in sports, I’m with you. If you want to continue to insist on inaccurate statements even when many people have responded, then it is you, not jsgoddess or anyone else, who is derailing your thread.
Hakuna Matata, France is where the Tour de France is held.
If you read carefully, you will see that it is other’s who cannot stand to talk about Tammy Thomas or give something constructive. Read the last paragraph of my original post. That is what I came here to say. Everybody is contorting my words because they are not comfortable talking about a sensitive issue. There are many things that are more disturbing than whether someone looks like a man or not. I came here to talk about doping and I presented Tammy Thomas as an example of what is wrong in sport. Yet, all you flamers want to do is to focus on here sexual appearance.