What the hell? (16 year old girl drugged, gang-raped, pictures on Facebook)

The BBQ Pit
21

It would differ based on the crime. What a previous poster said re: Virginia law would probably be a compelling way to approach the issue. Is 17 years, 11 months, and 25 days different than 18 years, 0 months, 0 days? In our judicial system, it is, but should it be? That’s the argument I have.

I can’t give you a specific answer, but I think that there is too large a gap between adult convictions and juvenile convictions in terms of severity. It is impossible to gauge it from an age perspective, but we try our best (hence the age of 18, etc).

Right, and I’m arguing that a 17 year old is not really different than an 18 year old in terms of mental maturity. They are CERTAINLY no different in determining if rape is an appalling crime.

22

I’d like to contribute to the ongoing discussion here, but I’m just shocked and appalled by this whole incident. We live in a fucking sick world.

23

No real need for me to address each of your points.

If you can justify why a person that is 17 years, 11 months, and 25 days old should receive a penalty that is a FRACTION of what a person would receive if they were 2 weeks older, then I will give you that. Of course there are many reasons (neurologically, physically, etc.) why a level of maturity should be used to consider the punishment for a crime, but you have to agree that something isn’t right in how it’s currently done.

IANAL, or by any means knowledgable of law, but I was under the impression that it is very difficult to try someone as an adult if they aren’t due to age. Even then, a firm conviction is harder still.

24

That’s not an argument it’s a question. Unless you mean you’re making the argument that age shouldn’t matter. How do you think we should determine when someone is mature enough to buy alcohol, or consent to sex, etc? If not on the day someone turns a specific age, then what?

If someone is still at the age where there the parts of the brain that govern impulsivity, judgment, planning for the future, foresight of consequences and other characteristics that make someone morally culpable still hasn’t matured, then I’d argue there should be a large gap in the severity of punishment between him and someone with a fully matured brain.

If you’re talking about a 17 y.o. that’s going to turn 18 tomorrow, of course. But you do think that one year of aging at that age will make a difference in the physical maturity of the brain and the better judgment that will come along with it, don’t you?

Anyway, I wasn’t talking about the difference between a 17 y.o. and an 18 y.o. I don’t know if 18 should be any cut-off age. But the article I linked to does show that a 17 y.o. brain isn’t fully matured, that that doesn’t happen until the early 20s, and is lacking in the areas I listed above.

There’s a difference between a young person being able to determine that something is wrong and having a brain mature enough to be able to not do that wrong thing when caught up in a certain situation. I know you didn’t say otherwise, but I wanted to point that out.

25

Nope. Speaking of Virginia law here (but I have no reason to believe that many other jurisdictions would differ widely):

14 and Older:
Murder, Rape, Robbery - Certification as an adult is automatic if requested by the prosecution. The Juvenile Court Judge has no discretion. It will be certified to a grand jury, and the offender will be indicted as an adult. If convicted, it is an adult conviction. The Judge can then sentence the Juvenile as an adult (big boy prison), or remand the case for sentencing in the Juvenile Court. In these cases, the Juvenile is committed to our department of Juvenile Justice (kid prison - but still prison) not to exceed their 21st birthday. Judges can also split the baby and sentence a juvenile to a portion of time in kid prison, and a portion of time in adult prison. But the conviction is an adult conviction… never to be expunged (unless overturned on appeal, obviously).

Other serious felonies (B&E, involuntary manslaughter, kidnapping, aggravated sexual battery) - Prosecutors can request certification, and there is a hearing on the merits. Issues to be considered are the Juvenile’s age (14 vs. 17 and 11 months), prior history, severity of crime, effect on victims/community, psychological factors, etc… Punishment is similar to the above, depending on whether or not the offender was certified. If they are not certified, but still convicted… they can still be sentenced to kid prison, but it is for an indeterminite time frame. And their record will NOT seal.

26

I probably can’t do it any better than you did:

27

Okay, so I will reform my argument:

The penalties involved should not create such an enormous disparity. Take the example given above regarding the Canadian girl that murdered (or at least helped murder) her entire family.

Do you think it’s FAIR that this girl will be able to reassimilate into society in ~10 years after committing 1st degree murder? I don’t, but that’s where our opinions differ, I think.

Sounds good to me, then.

Eh, really? “Whoops, tripped and fell…Gah! Didn’t notice my penis inside you…What do I do?! Let’s keep going”.

Anyone that gets “caught up” in a situation either knows full-well that it is wrong (morally and legally) OR is mentally disturbed. No 17 year old should be unable to determine that.

28

To clarify:

29

What is really bugging my ass most by this whole trajedy is the flippant refusal by those to take down the pictures or keep reposting while all the police can do is beg.

30

That’s the interwebs for you.

Not that it in any way vindicates the fucks doing that.

31

If you’re going to use judgment and common sense when a 17 year old commits a horrible crime and try him as an adult, then it seems the converse should go as well. If an 18-year-and-one-week old gets caught for a relatively harmless offense, like drugs or stealing, it should be possible to say “it’s not like he magically becomes an adult the week he turns 18”, and charge him as a minor. I have a pretty strong feeling they don’t, though…

32

I noticed that in the article, as well. Interestingly enough, these photos were called “child porn” in that article at least once, but they can’t bust the people who wont delete the photos on child porn charges? Seems odd to me.

33

I can’t believe that they even have to invoke child porn. I mean, even if she wasn’t a child, it would still be the worst kind of thing to keep them up. It’s pictures of someone being brutally raped. How anyone could post those and live with themselves is beyond me.

34

Well this is where I have some difficulty with all jurisdictions that I know of- if a crime is perpetrated why do "special circumstances " really appear.

If I was a 13 year old girl and got raped- would I care if the person who did it was under age?

The crime was still committed.

Ed Gein- he may have had a mother fixation- he murdered a few people. Those poor people are still dead. So he is housed and looked after for about 30 years but he was still a fruit cake.

35

You’re right, Gustav. Our legal system has drawn the line at 18.

For a lot of minor charges, however, most adults will get a slap-on-the-wrist punishment for first offenses as well. For a first time drug offense, for example, an adult can have the conviction dismissed if (s)he completes treatment, community service, and has no additional charges for a determined period of time.

I think the most important distinction between how we treat juveniles and adults in the system is the emphasis on punishment vs. rehabilitation. The focus on rehabilitation in the juvenile system is paramount. As a result, recidivism rates tend to be much lower… ((This is my anecdotal experience. In my county, our juvenile recidivism rate is about 4-6%, which is the second lowest in the State)). :slight_smile:

36

I don’t find that in the least bit compelling, and I have actually done research on this subject. IMO a violent crime should almost never be stricken from a teenager’s record.

I was the victim of a violent crime from a kid who was 17 years and 360 days old. I find it abominable that 5 days meant the difference between him having an adult felony record versus being wiped clean. It’s completely indefensible, in fact - he was a violent drug-dealing thug who attacked me, and all the hand-wringing over brains not being fully mature is bullshit. He was mature enough to drive a car, have multiple crimes under his belt, run his own drug-dealing enterprise…and yet still not mature, huh? Really, now.

In fact, until we can quantifiably set a metric for brain maturity the argument for giving violent teens a second, third, fourth, etc. chance is meaningless. If we want to ride that brain maturity horse, then we should also ban driving, having a bank account, and many other items before 18 as well.

37

Quite so; in Canada we have the “conditional discharge,” in which the court can impose various conditions, but if they are met, the person will be deemed never to have been convicted, will have no criminal record, and will have their police record purged after three years. (If the person violates the conditions, they may be returned to court and re-sentenced for the original crime.)

38

Why would those activities, which are obviously quite different from criminal acts, need to be the same age as criminal acts?

39

The event took place in Canada. As such, and very generally speaking, for any participants, the Criminal Code of Canada (CC) would apply; and if those participants were 18 or older, the CC’s prosecution and sentencing provisions would also apply. However, any accuseds under the age of 18 would fall under the provisions of the Youth Criminal Justice Act (YCJA). It is important to understand that the CC and the YCJA work together, in the sense that the CC contains all possible charges that can be laid against anybody of any age, but the YCJA determines how those charges are prosecuted and sentences determined when the accused is under 18.

Turning to the CC first, we see that under s. 271, the Crown can elect to prosecute a charge of sexual assault (the term used by the CC instead of “rape”) in a couple of different ways. I wouldn’t even hazard a guess as to how the Crown would elect to proceed, as age and past offenses may play a role in the Crown’s election decision, and various age-related defenses may be advanced by the accuseds under CC ss. 150.1 through 153. It should also be noted that some of the possible charges under CC ss. 150.1 through 153 might be able to be laid also, in place of (or perhaps alongside of) CC s. 271. There are also probably charges possible against those who posted photos on Facebook under CC s. 163.1 (child pornography).

The YCJA is a different beast altogether. Its primary purpose is to ensure that youth can be prosecuted for crimes, but in a slightly different way than adults. Ideally, the YCJA allows youth criminals (aside to Cat Whisperer: the term “young offenders” is no longer used officially) to be prosecuted for crimes committed under the CC, but with the possibility of having their records wiped by the time they hit 18. This does not necessarily occur, however; see YCJA ss. 61 through 81 as regards prosecuting youth as adults for presumptive offenses (defined at s. 2(1) of the YCJA), which some of the CC charges might be.

Note that if drugs were involved, there might even be charges possible under the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act (CDSA). Unfortunately, the news story was sketchy on the drug angle and I have to get to a few things today, so I won’t discuss the CDSA and its schedules right now.

Again, and honestly, I have no idea how this will all shake out, but I thought it worthwhile to take a fast look (key word: fast; unfortunately, I don’t have the time nor the information to analyze this fully) at the legislation that will govern the array of charges that can stem from this event, and also to provide links to the applicable legislation. I should add that while I am very familiar with the CC, I never dealt with youth crime, so my knowledge of the YCJA isn’t what it could be and I might be missing something in it. And, we only have the linked news story to rely on for facts–there may be something in facts not reported in the news item that could give rise to entirely different CC or CDSA charges and YCJA provisions. But I hope this all aids the discussion somehow.

40

Click on the link - it’s a report highlighted by the ABA arguing for a stance that peak mental maturity does not occur until the early 20’s, and therefore this says that teenagers shouldn’t be treated as adults. Since driving and managing your finances are also activities which could have serious and significant impacts to yourself and others, and which require significant mental maturity, I fail to see why one would give them more leeway.

At a bare minimum the age of majority for criminal acts should be pushed back to 16, IMO.