What the hell is so attractive about fascism?

In My Humble Opinion
21

What is fascism? How does Antifa define it?

The official name of the Berlin Wall was Antifaschistischer Schutzwall.

Orwell, “Politics and the English Language” (1946):

The word Fascism has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies ‘something not desirable’. The words democracy, socialism, freedom, patriotic, realistic, justice have each of them several different meanings which cannot be reconciled with one another. In the case of a word like democracy, not only is there no agreed definition, but the attempt to make one is resisted from all sides. It is almost universally felt that when we call a country democratic we are praising it: consequently the defenders of every kind of regime claim that it is a democracy, and fear that they might have to stop using that word if it were tied down to any one meaning.

Words of this kind are often used in a consciously dishonest way. That is, the person who uses them has his own private definition, but allows his hearer to think he means something quite different. […] Other words used in variable meanings, in most cases more or less dishonestly, are: class, totalitarian, science, progressive, reactionary, bourgeois, equality.

22

  1. I’m superior just because I was born into this group. So give me my free cookie

  2. We could be even greater if it wasn’t for them. They are keeping me from my cookie.

A lot of window-dressing about the strength of the group as greater than the individual, but look closer and you’ll find a lot of Count Cianos and Reichmarshal Goebbels working their own angles.

The common wisdom is that racism is the motivation, militarism is the means. But that may be backwards. Militarism is the primary enemy of mankind, but we must be careful not to alienate our own, so they’ll fight the ones who’ve taken it too far.

23

Lots of good reasons for people to be antifascist (as fascism is understood by those conversant with political science terms), and for any political entity in the US to resist the label, but what about in places where a political party can openly and proudly name themselves the Fascist Party (I’m looking at you, Italy), and actually win enough votes to secure seats in the government?

So what is it about Fascism that makes Beppo Bottiglia di Chianti not associate it with utter calamity?

(I was looking for an Italian analogue to Joe Sixpack, but Beppo Confezione di Sei just didn’t look right.)

24

The other night in a nice bar I happened to yak with a 50-ish couple. This was a day or so after the CNN presidential “debate”. They were dressed casual / scruffy (not uncommon in SoFL), but you can’t get out of that bar for less than $50 / head, so evidently they weren’t working class or unemployed.

Turns out they were trumpers, some of the first I’ve encountered in public. I was able to deliver one complete sentence and they both launched into a Gish Gallop of 2- and 3-word soundbites. None of the bites actually made sense as an idea; each was an allusion to an allusion to some larger idea. They each were babbling their own laundry list of bites, but between the two of them they probably delivered 20 bites on 15 different topics in 30 seconds.

That is what their mind is like inside all day every day. They have a long list of (mostly fanciful) horrors that they chew like a cud. They are promised that daddy trump will make all that disappear on that first glorious day of his promised dictatorship. Then calm will reign in their minds.

What they misunderstand of course is that (as said by others above), the propaganda machine will keep spewing that same volume of crazy angst-making BS at them after the takeover. Because the con only works while enough of the public is kept in that frenzied state that prevents rational thought. And while the public is exposed only to an altered version of reality that contains very little actual reality. But is comfortably consistent on the good news while laced heavily with the threats of the Big Bad lurking in every shadow.

So that’s a quick glance into the mind of two someones greatly desiring Fascism to take over their country…

FWIW, I shook my head, said “Your both deluded; I’m sorry.” and walked away. The were still galloping at empty space as I left the room. I have no doubt they congratulated one another on having shown that worthless Democrat who’s right about the world.

25

And when that doesn’t happen, it’s not because the goal was incoherent or unachievable or evil or stupid, it’s because Those Other People are stopping it.

26

Watch Fight Club. If you understand the appeal of the clubs and of the Space Monkeys, you’ll understand the appeal of fascism.

27

I watched it back in the day. On an emotional level I didn’t understand it then, and still don’t understand it now. Same thing with fascism. On an intellectual level I get that it’s a thing, and that people like Ed Norton’s character exist in real life. On an emotional level, I’ll never understand the appeal of being like that character, or of being a real life version of him.

28

The appeal of fascism is that, on its face, it looks easy.

No need to bother thinking about real solutions, just parrot whatever simplistic BS Der Fuhrer spouts. No need for introspection, those other people complaining about you are just commie libtards who can be ignored. No need to negotiate middle of the road compromises in the legislature, just imprison or kill the people who disagree with you. You just do you, and look the other way when the Gestapo hauls your neighbors away in the middle of the night.

29

Are we talking about Authoritarianism in general, or Fascism specifically?

If we’re talking about Fascism, check out these definitions from Umberto Eco, who besides being a brilliant writer, had some personal experience with the subject:

30

If you are wired that conformity is the highest best goal for all to aspire to, and it happens that you’re either part of the majority, or at least a local majority in your own small world, then anything that will reduce the variety in your surroundings is Good.

To the point that eventually even Miracle Whip seems so horrifically outré that even it needs to be banned. All so you can wallow in the perceived comfort of observing nothing but conformity as far as your eye can see.

A strong desire for conformity can also be seen as a strong desire not to have to make decisions. If all metaphorical roads are rerouted to have no intersections, then no choices need be made as you go through your day. That’s supremely emotionally simple for someone who finds choice scary.

The funny thing is how often they’re thundering about wanting their freedom.

31

“For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple and wrong.”

― H. L. Mencken

Fascism is often that solution.

32

Which follows naturally, once you take as an implicit assumption that conformity is the end goal. If you have both People Like You, and Others, and you assume that conformity is the end goal, then the only possibilities are that the Others either go away or become like you, or you either go away or become like the Others. And of course forcing you to go away or become like the Others would be an imposition on your Freedom, so the only possibility that preserves your Freedom is to eliminate or force change on the Others.

Of course, what this misses is the possibility that both you and the Others both continue to exist and both continue to be what they are. But this possibility is inconceivable to those of the fascist mindset. They think that everyone must obviously desire conformity, and so those who want the Others to continue must clearly be trying to force everyone to be Other. Hence fears of the Great Replacement, or gays grooming children to be gay, or the like.

33

And the thing is, of course, that a LOT of the people involved even at “upper middle” levels of the political efforts, only see their favorite single issue(s), they do not see the full complex. And FWIW even many of those working to move the whole program forward truly don’t see this as pushing for fascism. They will look at you like you have two heads when you question that the things they advocate are not god-given truths self evident. Who can be against tradition? Who can be against being strong? Who can be against putting their own kind first? Why, it is obvious that THIS is the RIGHT way for things to be, there is an order and those on top are righteously so, and opposing it is not just wrong it is evil.

And either simple authoritarianism, “illiberal democracy”, or fascism can, and will, very efficiently ride the coat tails of nationalist populism which ISTM is the real vibe at the man-on-the-street level worldwide.

True, many of us have mentioned it, not all authoritarianism is fascism, nor is every illiberal ordering of society. But they make it easier to tip over.

For example, take the Jim Crow South – sure, there were the components of traditionalism, self-selection, suspicion of the outsider, organized irregulars imposing violence on the underclasses, etc. but there was no true unitary “supreme leader” rather just an established oligarchy, who did not really advocate for a “state of constant struggle” but on the contrary for a stasis where everybody knew their place. So an Illiberal Oligarchic Apartheid state, that in the time it lasted did not get quite past the threshold of “fascist”… BUT however it would have been very easy to go there, as shown by how some of their late-stage descendants showed willingness to embrace it (e.g the KKK being displaced by outright NeoNazis).

34

That’s largely it - it’s something that looks like it will proviide certainty, simplicity, efficiency, and a lack of debate, compromise, etc… as long as you’re on the side of the fascists, or at least not in their way or sights.

We’ve all read about the fascist regimes that have sprung up historically, but most of those were in response to overall conditions- specifically post WWI Europe through the end of WWII.

I think where we’ve had a large degree of national myopia is in not actually realizing the degree of economic struggle, societal frustration and overall anger that’s been present among the white, rural population of the country. And even when I did see it, I was either thinking “Well those country people sure are weird; who wakes up at 7 am on a Sunday to go to church in college?”, or thinking that some things were just isolated incidents of lone kookery, not single small mushrooms of a much, much larger fungus.

So now we’re in a situation where this larger fungus has basically co-opted/allied themselves with the apparatus and ideology of a major political party, and are appealing to this demographic nation-wide, as well as anyone who might possibly think that sounds better in some way than the necessarily messy and imperfect process of hammering out compromise, and all the other stuff that goes with democracy.

35

I think this is a really important point.

I have a cousin of whom I am fond. She is very conflict-avoidant, and incidentally married to an ex-military authoritarian asshole. She just wants everybody to get along, and the easiest way for that to happen is for everyone to do what her husband says. She doesn’t seem to care what that is, but really likes having someone else make all the decisions.

She also never seems to understand why her kid (his stepkid) is perpetually a “source” of conflict.

Cousin-in-law will certainly vote for Trump. Cousin probably will, too, because all this politics is upsetting and she just wants not to have to think about it. I don’t think she much cares what happens as long as she doesn’t have to hear about it: she’ll tell herself that it’s fine, that people are basically good, that nothing is really wrong. As long as she has a middle-class life, she’ll give to charity and let somebody else handle what problems there are.

36

I think that as opposed to an illiberal oligarchic stasis, fascism proper has a strong element of reaction against liberalism- “we tried this ‘fairness, justice and democracy’ thing, and it was all a sham! We’re not going to be suckers any longer!” The difference between the Jim Crow South and Nazi Germany was that the Jim Crow South never saw Reconstruction or civil rights for African-Americans as anything but an alien radical Left regime externally imposed upon their society; whereas Nazi Germany was a reaction against the perceived weakness and failure of the Weimar Republic. IMHO fascism proper requires an element of bitter disappointment.

37

While the Civil Rights movement was a long-overdue correction of a fundamental injustice in American society, I sometimes think that the progressive Left took the wrong lesson away from it: that the way to achieve social progress was to shove reform down the bigots’ throats, and if they didn’t like it too bad. Basically, denigrate the fears and concerns of any fraction that doesn’t share the progressives’ noble ideals, and presume they can and should be politically marginalized.

38

Whereas I think that’s exactly the lesson that we failed to learn: The civil rights movement worked, in part, because it was shoved down the Right’s throats, and the Right likes having things shoved down their throats. We’ve been too timid since then, and the people we’re trying to convince hate timidity.

39

Yeah, but the Right basically needed a safe word. I think that’s the thing at play here; it may have been too much, too soon from their perspective, and this is the entirely predictable backlash, had anyone been paying attention.

I mean, they go from the late 40s-mid 50s, which apparently were some sort of idyllic time, to what seems like a runaway bobsled of progressive change to a religious and social conservative ever since.

Black Cat Bar, Brown v. Board of Education, Rosa Parks/Birmingham boycott, Little Rock, Ruby Bridges, One Inc. v. Olesen, Cooper Donuts Riot, Stonewall Riots, Civil Rights Act, Selma, Watts, Loving v. Virginia, Detroit Riots, Roe v. Wade, Harvey Milk, White Night Riots, Don’t ask, don’t Tell, Philadelphia, Lawrence v. Texas, Baker v. Vermont, Brokeback Mountain, Barack Obama, Obergefell v. Hodges, Pete Buttigieg, etc. These are all things that happened since the mid 1950s that changed the landscape or put some sort of civil rights in the public eye, all of which that side detested.

So it’s not exactly unexpected that they’d attempt to fight back - I don’t think they ever liked it, but in the old era, it was a bunch of politicians on both sides of the aisle playing to the middle, more or less, with the fringes being somewhat disregarded. So these folks never really had a chance until the Tea Party and the GOP’s subsequent hard right turn and embrace of Evangelicals and a distinctly blinkered, poor, white, and rural viewpoint. At that point, they had free rein to direct the party in their own direction, which is apparently a hard push back against all that stuff since 1954.

The question that remains to be seen in my mind, is how much the excluded middle in today’s politics will care. I feel like some of it may not be on their radar, but there’s a certain threshold that they won’t be willing to go past. Unfortunately, I feel like voter disenfranchisement may not be on the radar, but something like new Jim Crow would be too far.

40

Although this thread is really about US politics, it might be interesting to contemplate https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/02/world/europe/meloni-political-party-youth-wing-facism.html?unlocked_article_code=1.4k0.PBAX.25BL16_bkq90&smid=url-share
which was in today’s. Basically Italy’s prime minister Giorgia Meloni whose party is at least fascist adjacent is embarrassed by the overt fascism displayed by a group of younger members of her party. Here is a quote from the article:

“Italy’s prime minister, Giorgia Meloni, urged leaders of her political party on Tuesday to reject antisemitism, racism and nostalgia for totalitarian regimes after an Italian news outlet caught on a hidden camera members of the youth section of her party glorifying fascism.”

The article goes on to explain that she is trying to move her party in a more centrist direction.