What this country needs is another 9/11!

The BBQ Pit
101

[QUOTE=Evil One]
Who else is going to do the job? No system is perfect and individuals within the government have done questionable and illegal acts. But that doesn’t mean we can pretend there isn’t a problem while we worship at the altar of political correctness.
[/QUOTE]
No, but that’s not the problem. The problem is that the people in charge have no interest in fighting terrorism when they can exploit it instead. The problem is that it’s stupid to hand more power to people who not only might abuse that power, but who will make a point of it. And the problem is that terrorism isn’t nearly such of a threat that it’s necessary to give up our freedom or rights to deal with it. More Americans, and far more non-Americans have died because we gave Bush the power to do what he wanted after 9-11 than died in 9-11. The “cure” you propose is much worse than the disease and doesn’t even work; our enemies are stronger now and we are weaker.

[QUOTE=Evil One]
This is an example of why your political opinions are either ignored or mocked. If you seriously believe crap like this, there is nothing to be done for you.
[/QUOTE]
If you think I’m the only one to consider the Republicans the American version of the Taliban, or that there isn’t plenty of reason to believe that then you are deluding youself. The American Right and fundie Muslims agree on all sorts of things, and co-operate quite often on issues like abortion and homosexuality.

102

Der exaggerates wildly, but there is a kernel of truth to it. So who’s the bigger fool? Him, for exaggerating truth or you for ignoring it?

103

[QUOTE=Marley23]
Have you considered that another attack might prove that those methods don’t work?

[/QUOTE]

And have you considered that another attack will discredit those who oppose such methods in the minds of the vast majority of Americans? We will never know what attacks have already been prevented in the past six years. We do know that the security methods already in place are obviously effective in preventing a 9/11 scale attack because another one hasn’t happened.

Those of you who can’t bring yourself to admit this are welcome to comfort yourself with the idea that “the terrorists probably haven’t tried”. I’m sure that’s it. They stumbled onto “Daily Kos” on the internet, saw the light and now plan to join the ACLU as soon as their citizenship papers clear.

104

[QUOTE=elucidator]
Der exaggerates wildly, but there is a kernel of truth to it. So who’s the bigger fool? Him, for exaggerating truth or you for ignoring it?
[/QUOTE]

Many words and much bandwidth are consumed here and elsewhere by people struggling over the high ground of “truth”, Luci. You are smart enough to know that if another 9/11 scale attack happens that what I have been saying in this thread will come to pass. It will be a dark chapter in our history of being an open and tolerant society, but it will happen. If thousands of Americans are killed again, civil libertarians will long for the “good old days” of 2002. And the only thing that can stop it is for the Wahabbi’s to come to their senses and join the 21st century.

105

[QUOTE=Evil One]
… We do know that the security methods already in place are obviously effective in preventing a 9/11 scale attack because another one hasn’t happened. …
[/QUOTE]
For 5 points name this logical fallacy.

CMC fnord!

106

[QUOTE=crowmanyclouds]
For 5 points name this logical fallacy.

CMC fnord!
[/QUOTE]

Of course. Since nothing has happened, it couldn’t possibly be due to increased vigilance and security measures. Of course not.

But if another attack had happened, people like yourself would shake the sand out of your hair long enough to yell that the attack was Bush’s fault.

So to recap…if no attack happens the security measures get no credit. But if it does, they’ll get all the blame. Is that about right?

107

[QUOTE=Evil One]
And have you considered that another attack will discredit those who oppose such methods in the minds of the vast majority of Americans? We will never know what attacks have already been prevented in the past six years.
[/quote]
Starting on 9/11/2001, i i began jerking off to manga every day in an attempt to prevent future terrorist attacks. The absence of attacks on US soil during that period demonstrates that my method works.
[QUOTE=Evil One]
We do know that the security methods already in place are obviously effective in preventing a 9/11 scale attack because another one hasn’t happened.
[/quote]
So, if this is the case, remind me again why we need another attack to wake people up?

I get the feeling that you’d like to see another attack just for the hell of it.

108

[QUOTE=Evil One]
…We do know that the security methods already in place are obviously effective in preventing a 9/11 scale attack because another one hasn’t happened…
[/quote]

They have also been entirely effective in preventing elephant stampedes at the Mall of America. What you got there is a* post hoc ergo non sequiter*: the conclusion doesn’t follow, and even if it did, it still wouldn’t make any damn sense.

You know good and well you can’t prove a negative, which is probably why you stamp your foot when you say it.

Oh, I very much doubt that, I think it more likely their plans fell apart or they were ratted out, there’s good money to be made ratting out terrists, I have no doubt. 9/11 should never have happened, we were done in by the Keystone Terrorists with a plot Tom Clancy would have laughed out of the room. It only worked because we were even dumber than they were. We’ve had airplanes hi-jacked for fifty years now, and the goddam cockpit doors weren’t locked! How dumb is that?

Oooh, snap!

109

[QUOTE=mhendo]
Starting on 9/11/2001, i i began jerking off to manga every day in an attempt to prevent future terrorist attacks…
[/QUOTE]

You have the thanks of a grateful nation. Finally, someone to stand erect and stroke the Pillar of Freedom, and spank the monkey of Islamofacism!

110

[QUOTE=Evil One]
“Another attack on that scale will mark a fundamental change in our society. It only took one Pearl Harbor to focus the country in 1941. These days it appears that it will take two.”

Why? Because the whole idea of fighting terrorism is ideologically painful for folks on the left. It forces them to confront the idea that people who practice one particular religion are trying to kill us. This flys in the face of the central tenets of policital correctness and other utopian ideas that the far left would like to see implemented.
[/QUOTE]

It also helped that in 1941 there was a definite enemy. The United States was definitively aware of those behind Pearl Harbor and fought for retribution against them. At the time we were fighting an enemy as opposed to an action (terrorism). It is IMPOSSIBLE (read as theoretically and in practice: Not gonna happen) to end all terrorism.
If people of one particular religion were all that were trying to kill us and maiming are society as we know it, there is a very simple HISTORICALLY TESTED solution. Just slap some yellow stars on them, gather them in work camps to do jobs we dont want to do. Scientifically test people of this religion to see why they’re different and inferior, as they MUST be to not believe EXACTLY what we do. Then kill them, so they can’t kill us first. That should get them all in a tizzy and solve our terrorist problem.

[QUOTE=Evil One]
" That’s why they hate it when 9/11 is involked. It’s much easier to joke about it or to accuse the Republicans of “exploiting” 9/11 than to face the lessons that came from it.
[/QUOTE]

Please, I must have missed out on these lessons, I would sincerely like you to thoroughly explain them to me.

[QUOTE=Evil One]
"It would be much more simple to oppose the Patriot Act or the NSA surveillance program or the way the CIA interrogates people without the inconvienience of the memory of why these measures were necessary in the first place.
[/QUOTE]

Now, we DO have the Patriot Act & the NSA surveillance program and the CIA is interrogating people. IF by some horrible circumstance another 9/11 type event does occur, would that not prove these actions aren’t working?. . .
Now before you reply with “This means we need to increase said programs etc. etc. etc.” at what point are YOU willing to allow it to increase until you decide “You know what, I’m willing to concede certain things so I can hold onto my rights.” Are you willing to enact a “telescreen” type policy from 1984? That will sure find out who the terrorists are and stopped those darned squabling chipmunks… I for one, would rather take up arms on my own than ‘slide down that slippery slope’ and concede all those rights to the government.

[QUOTE=Evil One]
" In the six years since 9/11, the country has reverted back to ideological form. And when it comes to aggressive measures of fighting terrorism, the Democrats are on the wrong ideological side. And the only thing that will change that, unfortunately, is another 9/11 scale attack. After that, the country will realize that islamic terrorism is not, in fact, going away and it will have to be dealt with aggressively by whatever means are necessary. That means letting the NSA, CIA and Defense Department do thier jobs and quit the paranoid fantasies about “slippery slopes” and shadowy men in sunglasses listening to your phone call to your Aunt Marge.
[/QUOTE]

I disagree, what you want is ‘ideological form’. I want arguments, I want fervor in dissent, I want wars of WORDS in congress, I want all views to be shown and let the process of democracy find the right path. I do not want everyone on a singular path following the same ideas. I WANT aggressive measures of fighting terrorism. I want those responsible for 9/11 to fall. What I don’t want is to invade a country that “has” WMD’s to stop them from attacking us before they plan to, but just brush under the rug nations who are openly testing weapons with the goal of being able to attack us. The invasion of Afghanistan was what I wanted, to find Ossama. He is in a cave somewhere, but we got Hussein (it’s okay, we can just blame 9/11 on him and pretend we found his WMD’s)
And in fact, i HATE my Aunt Marge, so I’m not afraid of the NSA, CIA, Defense Department listening to my conversations with them. What I am afraid of is the United States going down my paranoid fantasy of the slippery slope. Where parents accuse children of being the enemy, where people are held in court for voicing opinions opposite those in power. Where media starts becoming censored, where an idea becomes off limits. I realize, this can NEVER, EVER happen though. So my fantasy about this needs to come to an end. . .
. . .

. . .

Oh, it can happen? What was McCarthyism ? Read up.

111

[QUOTE=mhendo]
Starting on 9/11/2001, i i began jerking off to manga every day in an attempt to prevent future terrorist attacks. The absence of attacks on US soil during that period demonstrates that my method works. …
[/QUOTE]
May I be the [del]first[/del] second American to [del]shake your hand[/del] salute you for your service.
You clearly deserve a medal…or a large box of tissues!

CMC fnord!

112

[QUOTE=Evil One]
And have you considered that another attack will discredit those who oppose such methods in the minds of the vast majority of Americans? We will never know what attacks have already been prevented in the past six years. We do know that the security methods already in place are obviously effective in preventing a 9/11 scale attack because another one hasn’t happened.

Those of you who can’t bring yourself to admit this are welcome to comfort yourself with the idea that “the terrorists probably haven’t tried”. I’m sure that’s it. They stumbled onto “Daily Kos” on the internet, saw the light and now plan to join the ACLU as soon as their citizenship papers clear.
[/QUOTE]
No, they stopped trying because they WON. We’ve handed them victory after victory. Short of electing Osama President we’ve done everything they could have desired.

And we know that the “security measures” haven’t prevented much of anything because they are a joke, mostly directed at the Democrats and the ACLU and such; and because it’s impossible to stop a determined attacker short of instituting a Soviet style police state.

The only thing stopping a terrorist from walking into a mall and setting off a bomb or opening fire with a submachine gun is that they aren’t interested.

113

[QUOTE=Der Trihs]

Outside of the words “God” and “Allah”, there’s little ideological or moral difference between Al Qaeda, the Republican leadership, or the Taliban. Theocratic, amoral sadists and tyrants, all of you. Every freedom eliminated, every random dead person is a victory for both Al Qaeda and the Republicans.
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Evil One]
This is an example of why your political opinions are either ignored or mocked. If you seriously believe crap like this, there is nothing to be done for you.
[/QUOTE]

I’m not a raging liberal , or conservative, or anything, Evil One, but it’s pretty obvious to me that Trihs hits closer to the mark than you do.

114

[QUOTE=Evil One]
And the only thing that can stop it is for the Wahabbi’s to come to their senses and join the 21st century.
[/QUOTE]

And, of course, we’re in Iraq to stop those Wahabbi bastards from…

What? No! Really? The Iraqis weren’t Wahabbi? The SAUDIS are Wahabbi?! But the Saudis are our friends, aren’t they? Bush says so! Must be true!

Seriously, bin Laden is Wahabbi. Al Qaeda is Wahabbi. The Taliban was/is Wahabbi-influenced.

Where does the Wahabbi sect hold the most power? Iraq? Nope! Saudi Arabia. How many of the 9/11 hijackers were Iraqi? All of them? Most of them? Nope! None of them. They were mostly Saudi nationals.

Why are we in Iraq, then? Why are we throwing bodies against the walls to try to keep a toehold on making the country at least officially USA-friendly?

I suppose it’s easy to guzzle the Kool-Aid when one doesn’t actually WANT to be a member of the reality-based community…

115

[QUOTE=jayjay]
And, of course, we’re in Iraq to stop those Wahabbi bastards from…

What? No! Really? The Iraqis weren’t Wahabbi? The SAUDIS are Wahabbi?! But the Saudis are our friends, aren’t they? Bush says so! Must be true!

Seriously, bin Laden is Wahabbi. Al Qaeda is Wahabbi. The Taliban was/is Wahabbi-influenced.

Where does the Wahabbi sect hold the most power? Iraq? Nope! Saudi Arabia. How many of the 9/11 hijackers were Iraqi? All of them? Most of them? Nope! None of them. They were mostly Saudi nationals.

Why are we in Iraq, then? Why are we throwing bodies against the walls to try to keep a toehold on making the country at least officially USA-friendly?

I suppose it’s easy to guzzle the Kool-Aid when one doesn’t actually WANT to be a member of the reality-based community…
[/QUOTE]

Where, pray tell, did you read the word “Iraq” in any of my posts in this thread?

116

[QUOTE=Evil One]
Where, pray tell, did you read the word “Iraq” in any of my posts in this thread?
[/QUOTE]
Is not Iraq the ‘Central Front’ in the War on Terror? Surely you can’t remind America of “who our enemy is” while spacing off our biggest struggle?

117

Frankly, talking about America forgetting who the enemy is while supporting all the things this administration has done to make us LESS safe, and then disingenuously ignoring Iraq as if it were a minor sidelight to our “War on Terror” rather than the main focus, is hand-wavery of the highest order.

118

Am I the only one who reads Stu’s piece as a whiny kid on the playground that just lost a kickball game? Do over man, that one didn’t count!

He isn’t willing to fess up and say that GW squandered worldwide good will, started an unneeded war, and has had everything he has touched turn to shit. Instead he wants to go back to that magical Bush with a bullhorn on top of a pile of rubble, and start again from where he fucked up.

119

[QUOTE=NurseCarmen]
that magical Bush with a bullhorn on top of a pile of rubble…
[/QUOTE]
Nobody plays Bush’s Barksdale speech anymore; pure deer in headlights!

120

[QUOTE=Evil One]
individuals within the government have done questionable and illegal acts
[/QUOTE]

Well, then, you need to put your focus on getting them into a nice PMITA prison where they belong.