I’m hoping some of you scientifical types will weigh in on this.
It’s my understanding that there’s such a thing as being “too clean,” and that people need to be around a certain amount of dirt, bacteria, germs, etc. I know we’re wanting to wipe COVID off all surfaces that people might come in contact with, but stuff is being cleaned and wiped with disinfectant that is not routinely sanitized and in fact may never have been before. Not to mention that cleaning products are scarce in all retail outlets. Dumping all of these products into drains and water systems-- is that a good thing?
Is this (in the short-medium-long term) going to upset some kind of ecological balance, like when a predator is introduced into or removed from an ecosystem and the whole thing goes pear-shaped?
Not sure this is the right forum. Move, if necessary.
ThelmaLou may be onto something. Aren’t there theories about the rise in childhood food allergies being caused by immune systems that are not getting enough challenging exercise? I think I’ve heard these theories have not panned out, but the point is that researchers were considering them, so the idea that immune systems need exercise isn’t ridiculous on its face.
There has definitely been a problem with antimicrobial soaps in recent years helping breed resistant bacteria, just like with overuse of antibiotics. I think it’s pretty reasonable that these kinds of cleaning products would have a long term negative effect.
More generally, cleaning products with phosphates in them contribute to overgrowth of microorganisms in waterways. Algae, I think. That’s why there were such controversies about phosphates.
Obviously, right now we want to minimize exposure to COVID, and I’ve seen conflicting articles on whether and how long the virus lives on surfaces. We’re still in a state of crisis, and want to be extra careful. I get that.
But if we keep on aggressively sanitizing and disinfecting for a year or so, won’t this have an effect on the human ecosystem? Maybe for better, maybe for worse.
I’m not a biologist and never even dated one, but there are probably some around here.
I am no biologist, doctor, scientist or anything of the sort, but as I understand it, even in our era, 95-99% of surfaces are still going unsanitized. The vast majority of home, automobile, outdoors surfaces are as dirty as they’ve ever been. This shouldn’t be an issue.
The amount of stuff we’re sanitizing and disinfecting is minimal compared to the total amount of bacteria-laden stuff around us that we’re constantly interacting with. There are very few changes in routine around my house, for instance, except that I carry masks and hand sanitizer when I go out. Other than putting shopping bags of groceries on the floor rather than on the counter to be emptied, I don’t think I do anything differently than I always have. I wash my hands after I get home but that’s an old habit that long since predates the COVID panic.
The amount of time we’re going to obsess over COVID-19 is fairly short in terms of the timeframes needed to significantly change the microbial ecosystem or our immunological responses to it. The use of antibacterial soaps with triclosan and the systemic abuse of antibiotics was/is probably a far worse problem.
Something like antibiotic resistance, at least, shouldn’t be relevant. When someone’s sick with a bacterial infection, you want something that’ll kill bacteria, but which is harmless to everything else: You don’t want to poison your patient along with the staph or strep or whatever. That’s tricky, and it means that it’s fairly easy for bacteria to evolve resistance to antibiotics: After all, if there are living things that are unaffected by it, bacteria can be among them. But the things we’re using to sanitize surfaces aren’t going inside people’s bodies, and so they don’t need to be selective. And indeed, most of the sanitizers we’re using are things like bleach and alcohol, that are toxic to pretty much everything.
The first part of that would seem to only apply to soaps where the addition of triclosan or quats would be redundant and counterproductive. But wipes labeled as “antibacterial” could be completely innocuous – the packs I have simply contain 75% alcohol and 25% water. The Clorox wipes pictured in the article, however, contain both alkyl C12-18 dimethylbenzyl ammonium chloride and alkyl C12-14 dimethylethylbenzyl ammonium chloride. I’ve seen articles associating quaternary ammonium compounds both with asthma-related respiratory issues and with reduction of fertility in mice. But this stuff is quite commonly used – it would appear that the safety all depends on the concentration.
I’ve been thinking that as well, at the extreme end, I’ve seen a few images which appear to show people literally walking down streets, spraying disinfectant. I’m not exactly a virologist, but that seems to be a terrible idea to me, and not just the immediate impact on people and other non-target organisms, like pets and wildlife. It may kill off all the microbiota, including, maybe, some COVID and other infectious diseases, but it’ll also kill all the beneficial stuff, disrupting ecological systems and leaving a nice blank canvas for whatever bacteria can move in first, which could themselves be a problem.
While not quite the same, I’ve studied a bit of plant pathology, and it’s certainly a known issue there, if you try and get a greenhouse, for example, too clean, you wind up with an unstable system and a higher risk of problematic organisms moving in, unless you keep on sterilising everything.
After chemo and radiation/chemo I had to re-establish my gut microbiome. That was not fun, and I really don’t want to have to do it again [except I will have to do something, my most current biopsy from last week showed cancer cells, so here we go again sigh]
One needs a certain amount of microbes in the gut, digestion is negatively impacted as part of the process is actually fermentation of the chyme as it wanders through the small intestine, and then again in the large intestine.
I just wandered into the thread to mention that the Bank of Canada officially discourages sanitizing Canadian banknotes with anything more than soap and water. Seems that alcohol and bleach don’t play nice with biaxially-oriented polypropylene or the inks thereon…
I was at a brewery last night offering outdoor distanced seating, as well as a few very spaced out indoor tables. We were sitting indoors, drinking, when I noticed the owner had a timer set for 15 minute intervals. Every 15 minutes he thoroughly cleaned the door (which was kept closed for air conditioning purposes).
Watching this, I realized that the door was constantly being contaminated as masked customers walked in and out of the building. I would not be surprised if they continue the door cleaning permanently.
Another somewhat lesser issue is damage to the stuff being so diligently sanitized. That door at the brewpub - if it’s painted, how many cleanings can it survive before the paint is worn off? How man things will be damaged by using an incorrect product, such as spraying upholstered furniture with a bleach solution, causing the fabric to fade and break down?
I have am answer for you. I’ve been sanitizing stuff for years. (Hi, my name is Beck and I’m a germaphobe)
1.Painted or varnished surfaces: about 4 times if you rub hard.
2. Granite counters: forever
3. Glass/ mirrors: forever
4. Plastic: gets cloudy after about 20 times
5. Formica: about 1000 times and you start feeling bumps and see dull spots.
6. Bamboo flooring: forever, according to the manufacturer. I will be holding that warranty up if it starts being an issue.
7. Painted metal: surprisingly not long lived. My red toaster looks like it has a bad rash.
Such a reaction is understandable. I presume it will lessen after the pandemic goes away. I’ve seen anxious mothers spray groceries before loading them into their car.
In the long term, too much cleanliness means more exposure to chemicals. Chemicals are not inherently bad or good. But you would want to limit exposure to some cleaning products. I suspect immune systems are weakened by not being challenged.
Maybe a problem if infants are locked up in a sanitized house all the time but if you let them play outdoors and be around other little kids they’re going to get exposed to all sorts of stuff. I don’t think people are going all that overboard though, cleaning the things you buy at the store isn’t going to turn your house into an aseptic bubble.
Rats.