Well, that sounds like it makes my point even stronger: namely, there are cases where Muslims come to the Netherlands (in this case, from colonial or post-colonial Indonesia) and assimilate so thoroughly to secular culture that they even stop identifying as Muslims. So evidently, that can happen.
But it is not (yet?) happening with the current first- and second-generation Muslim immigrants from places like Morocco and Turkey. So what I’m asking about is, what are the cultural/social/political differences between different groups of Muslim immigrants that produce these different results?
What are successful strategies for integrating Muslim immigrants so that their descendants will come to accept and support a multiconfessional, secular society? I’m not suggesting that they all have to integrate to the point of becoming “apostates”, but certainly they should be assimilated enough so that individual Muslims feel free to change or abandon their existing beliefs if they want to, just as some individual members of other faiths do. Is this just something that routinely tends to happen over the course of four or five generations, or are there particular policies that are required to foster it?
Nonsense. I’m not trying to make any excuses for anybody committing any kind of crime or barbarity, especially violent ones. Nor do I deny that there are major political strains of radical Islamism currently active that pose a potentially serious threat to free, multicultural, tolerant societies.
But I just think it’s stone-ass useless to focus our response to that threat on bitching about Islam in general, as you seem addicted to doing. Face it, Islam as a religion isn’t going away. The basic cultural themes of monotheism and the daily prayers and male circumcision and fasting on Ramadan and so forth are familiar norms for about a sixth of the world’s entire population, and that percentage is only going to increase in the near- to mid-term future. The Western democracies will either have to figure out how to mainstream a tolerant, secular-friendly form of Islam within their own societies, or develop “cold war” strategies for co-existing at arm’s length with hostile forms of Islam in other societies, or both.
In either case, just sitting around griping that “Islam is a bad religion, Islam is a bad religion” isn’t accomplishing anything at all. If you don’t like my efforts to understand the historical development of hostile Islamism in the Netherlands, or my suggestions for strategies to promote better assimilation of European Muslims, then why don’t you offer some constructive alternatives instead of just sniping at me?
What do you think the Dutch government ought to do about hostile Islamism? Kill all the Muslims? Deport all the Muslims? Tear down the mosques and make the practice of Islam a crime? Legally establish stricter “inburgering” requirements? Abolish the hijab? What? C’mon, let’s see you try to tackle the actual policy issues, instead of just incessantly lamenting how incurably awful things are and how it’s all the fault of people like me. Grrrrrr.
Hee hee, I got 10 clogs out of 10!
(I have to confess that I kind of figured out the winning strategy after the first few questions, but even without that I think I would have got most of the answers right.) I turn out to be more Dutch than the Dutch on a few of those issues, particularly the grocery checkout line. If you don’t like how long it takes me to put my groceries into my shopping bags in the one correct fashion, that’s your tough luck. Even geduld a.u.b.! 