What will happen in Gaza now that Trump won?

[MrDibble]

@Happy_Fun_Ball

. If the Israelis are perpetrating a genocide, they are less efficient that I would expect them to be. Auschwitz alone averaged more than 1,000 deaths (or 0.11% of the total Jewish population) a day during the holocaust.

Auschwitz only really ramped up in '41-'42 - years after the killings started. Like I said before, right now we’re at the einsatzgruppen equivalent of this modern Holocaust. And if the world keeps turning its back, no need to ramp up beyond that, slow and steady will get the job done.

You only need the trains and showers when it looks like you’re going to have more victims than you can handle with good old bullets (and when you can’t find troops who can handle the murder anymore).

Israel doesn’t seem to be short on the willing baby-murderer front, so it’ll be bullets (and white phosphorous) for the foreseeable future, I’m sure. It’s not like Israel is going to open an Eastern Front and find it has 5 million more Palestinians to deal with.

[Babale]

@Happy_Fun_Ball

For stage 4, there is an expected excess mortality of 1-2 / 10,000 every day, while for stage 5 the excess mortality is 2-4 / 10,000 per day. Doing the math, it looks like the Israelis are upping their game as this conservatively works out to 155 people per day dying of starvation under the current conditions. The IPC released an alert noting that there are currently only ~57 aid trucks entering Gaza every day, the lowest rate since last October. Fifty seven trucks of food & supplies for 2.1 million people. Seems sketch.

I still don’t know if this counts as a genocide, but I am upset that my government isn’t doing more to stop the deaths in Gaza. Israeli seems to be off the rails IMHO.

Links to cites provided if requested

Considering how these claims of starvation have been made for months and months now, maybe you can find a cite to show all these people who starved to death? Hundreds a day, should be really easy to find dozens of cites about starvation, right?

But of course, you can’t cite any of these “excess deaths”, because they aren’t happening. At best, you’ll be able to show someone who was in the hospital with a super specific restrictive nutrutionary requirements who starved - I know of single digit numbers of cases where such a thing happened.

(And to be clear, that’s tragic and a terrible thing to have happen; Hamas should release the hostages and surrender so everyone can get the medical care they need).

But sure, let’s pretend that hundreds of people are starving every day (that’s what 150 excess deaths would mean) with no one ever seeing any evidence of it.

I mean, your own numbers of dead Palestinians don’t leave room for 155 excess deaths a day; how do you explain that?

@Happy_Fun_Ball

Fifty seven trucks of food & supplies for 2.1 million people. Seems sketch.

Why does it seem sketch? What math are you using to determine that’s not enough trucks? Do you know how much food is produced in Gaza (spoiler: it’s not 0, no matter what certain folks would like you to believe)?

[Mijin]

So we’re back to just “everyone’s lying”. When people like Human Rights Watch state a specific number of infant deaths due to starvation / malnutrition, you think they’re making it up? Or just that they all the dead had “super specific nutrutionary requirements” syndrome?

Gaza: Israel’s Imposed Starvation Deadly for Children

[Lumpy]

Innocents are surely dying in Gaza, but how much of that is involuntary martyrdom deliberately caused by Hamas for propaganda purposes?

[Babale]

@Mijin

When people like Human Rights Watch state a specific number of infant deaths due to starvation / malnutrition, you think they’re making it up? Or just that they all the dead had “super specific nutrutionary requirements” syndrome?

I like how you avoided stating the specific number, because it falls far short of the laughably high claim you made of 155 a day.

Just so everyone is clear on how far you moved the goal posts, we went from 155 a day to 35 total, for the whole war so far.

And yes, most of those were specific situations like extreme dietary requirements.

[Mijin]

@Babale

I like how you avoided stating the specific number, because it falls far short of the laughably high claim you made of 155 a day.

Just so everyone is clear on how far you moved the goal posts

I have not moved any goalposts – you have confused the claims of two different posters. And I would suggest an apology is in order.

All I have been trying to do is get some acknowledgement that the IDF is committing atrocities; and more than just normal warfare. So…are Human Rights Watch inventing claims of children starving to death?

[DrDeth]

@Mijin

So…are Human Rights Watch inventing claims of children starving to death?

I will point out that Hamas has been intercepting food and aid and then selling it to their own people.

And remember Hamas arms children . Then when that young soldier dies- claims that death as a war crime.

Netanyahu is indeed a warmongering asshole. But Hamas started the war, with some horrible atrocities. Hamas doesnt give a crap about their own people.

There are no good guys here.

[Mijin]

Ah the gish gallop of excuses / handwaves.
Before I chase the various squirrels, let’s start with what I was just talking about.

Human Rights Watch have not only reviewed the photos, medical data and death certificates of the people that have died (which was the first thing I was asked to cite) but they have also put the blame squarely on the blockades of food and other resources.

So: are they lying?

[Odesio]

@DrDeth

Netanyahu is indeed a warmongering asshole. But Hamas started the war, with some horrible atrocities. Hamas doesnt give a crap about their own people.

There are no good guys here.

I genuinely feel bad for the people of Palestine, but I don’t really know what to do. Neither Israel nor Palestine seems interested in any realistic plan that would lead to a peaceful resolution. I don’t expect the election of Trump will do anything positive for the Palestinians. If anything it might just make Israel a little more bold, feeling as though nobody will interfere with them even in the smallest of ways.

[Babale]

@Mijin

All I have been trying to do is get some acknowledgement that the IDF is committing atrocities; and more than just normal warfare.

I’ll acknowledge that if it ever becomes the case.

Israel is fighting Hamas in exactly the same way that any other nation would be forced to fight an enemy that behaves like Hamas does.

[Babale]

@Mijin

So: are they lying?

About a handful of starvation deaths due to very particular circumstances since the beginning of the war? No.

But anyone trying to use that as evidence of intentional starvation tactics or genocide by Israel is lying, yes.

[DrDeth]

@Mijin

Human Rights Watch have not only reviewed the photos, medical data and death certificates of the people that have died (which was the first thing I was asked to cite) but they have also put the blame squarely on the blockades of food and other resources.

Back on Oct 2023, sure= but when the aid gets thru the IDF, here is what happens-

Here's what happened in Gaza after biggest looting of U.N. food aid in recent...

Israel’s military allowed a convoy of 109 trucks carrying desperately needed food aid to cross into Gaza over the weekend. The trucks had to take a route that was unfamiliar and new, according to the U.N., but as NPR’s Aya Batrawy and Anas Baba report, armed gangs attacked the convoy, stealing the aid and even the fuel in the trucks.

Hamas caught on video stealing dozens of humanitarian aid trucks entering...

Hamas terrorists were captured on video taking control of 47 of 100 aid trucks entering the Gaza Strip on Tuesday.

“It’s no secret that Hamas takes control of humanitarian aid. We’ve already published here tapes of Hamas, in which you hear them say themselves they have no more room in their warehouses,” Channel 12‘s Almog Boker reported on Wednesday evening.

Almost 100 Gaza aid lorries violently looted, UN agency Unrwa says

A convoy of 109 UN aid lorries carrying food was violently looted in Gaza on Saturday, the UN agency for Palestinian refugees (Unrwa) says.

Ninety-seven of the lorries were lost and their drivers were forced at gunpoint to unload their aid after passing through the Israeli-controlled Kerem Shalom crossing with southern Gaza, in what is believed to have been one of the worst incidents of its kind.

Eyewitnesses said the convoy was attacked by masked men who threw grenades.

Unrwa commissioner general Philippe Lazzarini did not identify the perpetrators, but he said the “total breakdown of civil order” in Gaza meant it had “become an impossible environment to operate in”.

So, Yes The IDF is taking their time searching aid trucks, which slows down the amount of aid getting in- true. Then when the aid trucks get in, Hamas loots the trucks.

So, who - really- is starving the Palestinians?

And lets look at your cite- The Israeli bombardment and total blockade… The Israeli government should immediately end its total blockade of the Gaza… but then admits- Israel announced on October 18, 2023, that it would allow food, water, and medicine to reach people in southern Gaza from Egypt, Not to mention- this cite is from oct 2023. Things have changed since then.

And I just showed cites talking about convoys of over 100 aid trucks the IDF admitted into Gaza. So, there is no “total blockade”.

@Odesio

Neither Israel nor Palestine seems interested in any realistic plan that would lead to a peaceful resolution. I don’t expect the election of Trump will do anything positive for the Palestinians.

Not Israel- Netanyahu . And it will get worse.

@Babale

Israel is fighting Hamas in exactly the same way that any other nation would be forced to fight an enemy that behaves like Hamas does.

Right. If the terrorist recruit and arm children- is it an atrocity to kill those terrorists?

[Babale]

@Mijin

I have not moved any goalposts – you have confused the claims of two different posters. And I would suggest an apology is in order.

Excuse me? What am I supposed to apologize for?

I said that claims of 155 people a day starving are incorrect, and you responded with:

@Mijin

So we’re back to just “everyone’s lying”. When people like Human Rights Watch state a specific number of infant deaths due to starvation / malnutrition, you think they’re making it up? Or just that they all the dead had “super specific nutrutionary requirements” syndrome?

If you didn’t mean to post that in support of those false claims, then you should probably clarify that.

[Happy_Fun_Ball]

Wait, are you claiming that the deaths in Gaza are Hamas killing Palestinians so they can blame the deaths on Israel? Is that really what you think is happening?

[Smapti]

They certainly aren’t protecting Gazans.

[Mijin]

@Babale

I’ll acknowledge that if it ever becomes the case.

People giving examples and each time there is some deflection and now I don’t know what you’d accept as evidence. You don’t get a “handful” of children dying in an environment in which there is adequate food

@DrDeth

Back on Oct 2023, sure

So you’re acknowledging that starvation tactics have been used?

@DrDeth

Right. If the terrorist recruit and arm children- is it an atrocity to kill those terrorists?

A large proportion of the deaths are infants and babies.
But, while this kind of handwave never needs evidence of engagement with an enemy or weapons found etc anyway, let’s just say the babies were terrorists too and call it a day.

@Babale

If you didn’t mean to post that in support of those false claims, then you should probably clarify that.

We have been speaking about numerous claims and my posts saying “we’re back to” I would have thought would be obviously talking about the general discussion, not endorsing all claims by all posters in the meantime.
But I take back the request for an apology as looking back I can see a possibility for misunderstanding.

[Babale]

@Mijin

People giving examples and each time there is some deflection and now I don’t know what you’d accept as evidence. You don’t get a “handful” of children dying in an environment in which there is adequate food

What are you even talking about?

Gaza is a war zone under the control of a terrorist group with 0 regard for distributing food to the civilians it supposedly represents. There is not “adequate” food, regardless of whether anyone is actually starving.

But it’s not Israel’s fault that Hamas is entirely manned by pieces of human shit who care ten times more about killing an Israeli than saving a Gazan.

If Hamas wanted to cooperate on setting up humanitarian movement corridors or ensuring that international aid gets to the people of Gaza, those things would have been happening all throughout the war, and many lives would have been saved.

But why should Hamas do any of that? Put yourself in their shoes. You don’t give a rat’s ass about the life of Palestinians; any failure in aid distribution or evacuation routes gets blamed on Israel, no matter what you do; why would you cooperate? It’s a lose-lose for you.

[DrDeth]

@Mijin

So you’re acknowledging that starvation tactics have been used?

No, Think Back- Oct 2023 is when Hamas attacked. Of course Israel had to close the borders. They then let aid in, after searching the trucks.

So, aid is getting in- but a lot of it is being stolen by Hamas, and being sold to its intended recipients. So, if people are starving- it is the fault of Hamas not israel.

@Babale

Gaza is a war zone under the control of a terrorist group with 0 regard for distributing food to the civilians it supposedly represents. There is not “adequate” food, regardless of whether anyone is actually starving.

But it’s not Israel’s fault that Hamas is entirely manned by pieces of human shit who care ten times more about killing an Israeli than saving a Gazan.

If Hamas wanted to cooperate on setting up humanitarian movement corridors or ensuring that international aid gets to the people of Gaza, those things would have been happening all throughout the war, and many lives would have been saved.

But why should Hamas do any of that? Put yourself in their shoes. You don’t give a rat’s ass about the life of Palestinians; any failure in aid distribution or evacuation routes gets blamed on Israel, no matter what you do; why would you cooperate?

Right- and also you can fund your terrorism by selling the aid food to the people of Gaza! Propaganda win, more money for terrorism- win win!

[Lumpy]

@Happy_Fun_Ball

Wait are you claiming that the deaths in Gaza are Hamas killing Palestinians so they can blame the deaths on Israel? Is that really what you think is happening?

Nothing so overt. But diverting food supplies so that only their supporters get fed, sure. Turning hospitals into command centers and ammo depots, then crying crocodile tears when the Israelis target them. Making it crystal clear that anyone turning to the invaders for food, medicine or shelter will be executed. Selling relief supplies for cash to buy black market weapons. Human shields. Resistance fighters impersonating civilians to conduct sneak attacks. And every bit of Israeli retaliation to provoked incidents and every collateral death caused by the fighting trumpeted to the high heavens by their propaganda machines as Jewish (yes, Jewish, not Israeli) atrocities. “Involuntary martyrs” is a literal description of how the Hamas leadership views the entire population of Gaza.

[DrDeth]

@Lumpy

But diverting food supplies so that only their supporters get fed, sure. Turning hospitals into command centers and ammo depots, then crying crocodile tears when the Israelis target them. Making it crystal clear that anyone turning to the invaders for food, medicine or shelter will be executed. Selling relief supplies for cash to buy black market weapons.

Yep, all of those.

This does not excuse Netanyahu of course.