I’m just curious what everyone thinks about this. Is peace in these areas possible? How long will it take? I include both Israel and N Ireland because first, I see similarities between them, and second, because I have ties to both of them. My grandparents came from Ireland, and my sister-in-law’s mother was born in Jerusalem.
So if you were a political leader in N Ireland or Israel, how would you approach the peace process?
The tensions, hatreds, and feelings are too deep to bridge permanently.
Pray for Messiah to come!
Pronto?
In a word. NO!
The tensions, hatreds, and feelings are too deep to bridge permanently.
Pray for Messiah to come!
Pronto?
If I were a political leader in Israel, I would fight for a one-state solution: A single republic which would include the occupied territories and include the Arabs as fully enfranchised citizens with representation in the Knesset. In the long run, it’s the only thing that can work. If they put through a two-state solution, with the West Bank and the Gaza Strip forming a new state of Palestine, then Palestine will always be an inferior dependent of Israel, even when there are no Israeli troops on Palestinian soil; Palestine will be “independent” of Israel only in the sense that the Bantustans were independent of South Africa. The occupied territories simply do not have the economic resources to compete with the Israelis on equal terms. But if Jews and Palestinians are united in a single state, all casting direct votes for the government, all sharing in the national wealth, then the Jews will not be able to oppress the Arabs as they have done, nor relegate them to second-class citizenship, because the Arabs will have almost half the seats in the Knesset – and more than half, within one or two generations. Furthermore, under a single-state solution, the Jewish settlers in the occupied territories would not have to pack up and leave; they could stay and participate, in proportion to their voting strength, in the Arab-dominated local governments; and they would have the national government to protect them from any oppression or discrimination at the local level.
Of course, a one-state solution would effectively mean the end of Israel as a characteristically Jewish state, as the fulfillment of the Zionist dream. All the religious-based restrictions in public life that the rabbis in Parliament have succeeded in making the law of the land would be thrown out as soon as the Arabs got a fair voice in policymaking. And no doubt the Arabs would put through their own “law of return” welcoming Palestinians who have fled the region since 1948 to come back as full citizens; and of course Palestinians who used to live in Israel proper but fled to the West Bank, etc., would be free to live in any part of the country they wished. Arabs would be integrated into the police forces and into every platoon of the army. All of this changes would be good things. Especially the discomfiture of the rabbis. The state of Israel, or Palestine, or Israel-Palestine, whatever they end up calling it, would cease being an intractable hot-spot and global magnet for trouble. It would become an ordinary, moderately prosperous republic of the Levantine region, with a better government than its neighbors, a better industrial base than its neighbors, and a guaranteed market in religious tourism. And maybe American evangelical Protestants would stop thinking that Israel has some dramatic role to play in the working out of End Times prophecy.
If I were a leader in Northern Ireland, I would fight for unification with the Irish Republic. Same basic reason: It’s the only solution that is sure to settle the problems once and for all. And the Prots have enough numbers to elect plenty of representatives to the Dail.
But at the same time, I would fight for reunification of the Irish Republic with the United Kingdom. Why not? Even as an “independent” state, the Republic’s economy is tied to, and largely dependent on, Britain’s. Decisions made in Westminster can have a more direct effect on the lives of ordinary Irish than decisions made in Dublin – and the (Republican) Irish do not have any voice in Westminster. They should.
Here’s an idea: A federal Britain, of coequal states or provinces, like we have in the U.S.: the nine administrative regions of England would become states; as would Scotland (or maybe Scotland could be divided into two states, High Scotland and Low Scotland); Wales; and the traditional four provinces of Ireland – Munster, Leinster, Ulster and Connaught. Or maybe five provinces – they could revive the ancient central province of Meath. The British Isles would be a federation of 15 or 16 self-governing states with roughly equivalent populations and voting clout; none could overwhelm the others, the way England, as a single unit, has always overwhelmed all non-English parts of the UK.
Of course, I am neither Jewish nor Irish, and have never even visited Israel or Ireland.
By the way, the English administrative regions are Greater London, South East, South West, East of England [East Anglia], West Midlands, East Midlands, York and Humber, North West, and North East. Here’s a descriptive article with map: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Region_(England)
One more thing: Such an arrangement would me much more acceptable to the Irish (and to all Brits with any sense in their heads) if it were the Federal Republic of the British Isles, and fuck old Lizzy Windsor up the arse!
about 78.8% of the pouplation of the UK and Ireland live in England, 27% of the UK and Ireland’s population live in the South-East of England, 51% in the other regions of England, 8.1% in Scotland, 5.8% in the Republic of Ireland, 4.6% in Wales and 2.6% in Northern Ireland. It wopuld take a fair amount of gerrymandering to divide it up into simlairly populated regions. (2000 figures)
The adminstrative boundaries listed in wikipedia are entirely (at the moment, there has been some talk of regional devolution) for adminstrative purposes only, few people would actually know which of these adminstrative regions they live in, I only know that these regions exist because I work for the Civil Service (which is the main reaon I oppose the dissolution of the monarchy as I get a day off on her (offical) birthday).
Also Ireland’s dependcy on the UK has been laregly dimnished since it joined what became the EU sevral decades ago.
eh, we actually have peace in Northern Ireland, seeing as there has been a ceasefire since 1997. what you are asking about is if there will be a lasting settlement that will appease all sides. Not quite as easy as it sounds.
As for Israel, the way forward is negotiation and concessions on both sides.
As an English person who has family ties with the Republic, I humbly suggest that you’re being a bit naive. I’d like to see cites, but it’s not clear to me at all that that the Irish Republic’s economy is ‘dependent on’ that of the mainland. I rule myself out of the political debate - to some extent for family reasons, to some extent through ignorance, and to the most extent to the guide of the Dublin ex-prison where he explained in graphic detail how the marriage of (shit I wish I could remember his name - please, someone fill it in) a jailed Republican rebel in 191x was allowed to marry his fiance, but the freshly married husband was, later that day, taken out and shot. Fuck.
Yeah but what’s stopping the Palestinians from electing someone who’d walk into the Knesset strapped with explosives? And I seriously doubt the Israelis would ever agree to Palestinian representation (with things the way they are now). I think if the US stopped supporting Israel unquestioningly, then they’d realize they’re never going to survive if they don’t give the Palestinians the rights they’ve been denying them.
??? If you gave the Palestinians a choice, I think they would prefer full Israeli citizenship to independence. Why would they want to elect a mad bomber to the Knesset? It they are annexed and enfranchised, it is now their Knesset.
As for the U.S. not supporting Israel unquestioningly – I’ll go you one better. Let’s invade! Yeah! Let’s invade Israel and force them to annex the territories! Call it “Operation Shotgun Wedding”! Nasty way to treat an ally, but in terms of logn-term political benefits, it makes a lot more sense than what we just did in Iraq.
BrainGlutton, you don’t think that it’s likely that once the Palestinians gained a majority in the Knesset that the rights of Israelis would go out the window? That you’d just be swapping the edicts of rabbis for the edicts of imams?
No, because the numbers of Arabs and Jews in the state would be roughly equivalent, neither able to utterly dominate the other in political terms; and neither ethnic group is entirely dominated by its religious extremists. There is a wide range of political opinions among the Jews, and if the central mobilizing focus in Palestinian politics – domination by Israel – were eliminated, I’m sure the Palestinians would develop just as wide a range. In short, neither the mullahs nor the rabbis would be able to form enough of a bloc to call the shots. Given Israel’s flexible PR system, which favors the development of multiple political parties, several of which must go into coalition to form a government, I would expect several different Arab parties to emerge; and I expect any future governing coalition would have to be a transethnic one – e.g., Labour joining hands with socialist-leaning Arabs. But extremist rabbis and extremist mullahs could never join in a pro-religious coalition – too many points of irreducible conflict.
BrainGlutton, this is the second time in three days you’ve posted something which shows a remarkably outdated view of Ireland. Do you mind reading some histories written later than 1965 and then coming back to us?
The Northern Irish don’t have much of a voice either, since the parties that control Westminster do not stand candidates there. This is actually an argument for Irish reunification - both the unionist and nationalist people would have more say in the way their government is run than they do now.
Xerxes, when you are speaking of Ireland, please do not refer to Britain as “the mainland”.
Wow. That’s one of the funniest things I’ve read in a long time. You’re joking right? You’d have as much chance getting the US to join the Empire again.
Brain Glutton, I think the clock on your computer is wrong. It’s actually 2004, not 1904. that long date format can be awkward at times.
I think this is true in general, but there have been times when (for instance) the unionist parties have been able to exert influence over the much larger (usually Tory) parties when a delicate vote is in the balance, and the Tories need Unionist support.
Point taken, my apologies. For some reason, I was recalling a conversation with an Irish friend who used the phrase. He was of course from N.I., not the Republic.
True, although not recently.
The two are not really comparable any more. Granted, there are still instances of sectarian exclusionism and organised criminal behaviour (eg. punishment beatings) in NI which one would not find elsewhere, but it is nothing like the height of the Troubles.
If anything, it offers hope to Israel that peace, no matter how uneasy, can be acheived.
The real breakthrough, I believe, was a grudging acceptance by the “occupying” state that they would have to negociate with the terrorists themselves. This is unlikely in Israel, where the state does not send an invitation to parley to said terrorists but a helicopter gunship to blow up their car and anyone else unfortunate enough to be in it or walking nearby.
Will Hamas and Islamic Jihad ever agree to negociate directly? Possibly not. However, they certainly will not if, as soon as they turn up under a flag of truce, they are arrested or bugged for intelligence.
Again, please refer to the previous thread in which all of the Irish-based dopers (regardless of political stripe) disagreed with this unrealistic view of the solution to the problem. You need to do a Northern Ireland 101 or something…
Well, at the risk of being extremely politically incorrect, I think much of the Middle East tension is due to the Arab nations’ stated goal to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. Hard place to make peace from.
The kids that are schooled in midrashes (sp?) are taught from an early age to hate and kill, and are frequently not taught modern secular subjects like science, math, language skills, etc. These kids are programmed to hate the “Jewish enemy” from birth, and I really don’t know how to counteract something as deep rooted as that. Couple that with totalitarian religious extremist governments, censoring news and alternative viewpoints from other parts of the world, and the encouragment of fanatical religious beliefs, and it’s a tough nut to crack.
I heard a saying once, and again it’s politically incorrect to the extreme. But as one sided as it is, I also believe it’s accurate:
If the Arabs put down their weapons, there would be peace. If the Israelis put down their weapons, they would be annihilated.
So IMHO, for there to be peace in the Middle East, the Arabic schools must be changed to a mixture of religion AND secular studies, their governments must allow the free expression of foreign ideas and the practice of other religions (note that Islam is perfectly legal in Israel), and extreme fanatisism must be punished, not promoted. (Hey, we tolerate militia groups in the U.S… until they blow up federal buildings in Ohio. When they do, we don’t dance in the street, we find the murderers and punish them.)
Not that I think extremist fundamentalist Arabs hate Israel alone. They hate everything Western. Hence the public rejoicing after 9/11, followed by their governments confiscating as much footage of said celebrations as they could, because they knew that kind of PR could only hurt their image in the Western/free world.
As for Ireland, I admit massive ignorance of the situation there. I just truly find it amazing that the battle is between Catholics and Protestants. That is to say… followers of Jesus vs followers of Jesus. Not that conflicting religions should battle it out, but religions that are essentially the same and which pray to the same deity?! Yes yes yes, I know it’s deeper than that, but that is a significant part of the problem. And I have a very hard time imagining the scene in NY or Kansas or Arkansaw… 1st Presbeterians throw molotov cocktails at the next door Catholic chuch?
I don’t want to make light of Ireland’s problems. I just truly don’t understand them.