You’re barking up the wrong tree.
The religious aspect is merely a facet of two cultures that oppose each other in what is fundamentally a political, economic, and territorial problem.
Maybe if we just made the whole world one big country everything would be OK. Because then, you know, everyone would be forced to cooperate and there would be no fighting. :rolleyes:
I’m sure I oversimplified. Again, it’s not something I’m as educated about as I wish I were. But it does occasionally boil down to pictures of Protestant mobs throwing rocks at 13 year old girls on their way to Catholic school, or vice versa.
But if you’re in Ireland or the UK, that situation is much more likely to be expressed as “Loyalist mobs throwing rocks at 13 year old Nationalist girls on their way to Catholic school” (and thankfully it hasn’t been vice versa, though there have been different nasty things happening on the Republican side).
But the rocks (and pipe bombs at one point) aren’t being thrown because of their religion. The incident was nominally happening because of an alleged threat from Republicans in the area. The religion thing is a convenient identifier and an added string to the bow of hatred, but not the primary reason.
Well, there’s no point in my claiming ignorance and sticking by it. I don’t expect anyone to post a synopsis here, but if someone knows a link to a site that may have some basic information as to the Irish conflict, I’d love to read up on it.
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/othelem/
There you go. Its always heartening to see people taking an interest.
How about they trade? We ship the N Irish to the Middle East and the Israelis to Northern Ireland.
OK, I’m replying to this as soon as I read it, so I don’t know if anyone else set you straight already, but Muslims believe in the same god as Christians and Jews. They just think that they worship Him better, much like Christians believe that they worship the same god as the Jews, which is an all right religion except for the whole not accepting Jesus as their savior thing. So Judaism, Christianity and Islam are the same god, just different styles of worship.
Oh, and I completely understand why Arabs want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. I’m not saying they should, but I understand. My sister-in-law’s mom lived in Israel as a kid, and one day the Israeli army came to her neighborhood and said “Hey, there’s been a lot of civil unrest here. We have a feeling something really bad is about to happen and we don’t want any innocent civilian casualties. You should go somewhere else for a while, go stay in a hotel or visit your relatives, it’s too dangerous here right now.” So they packed up some clothes and went to stay with an uncle for a few weeks, and when they tried to go home they found out that their entire neighborhood was now populated with Jewish people, and there was a strange family living in their house. They lost their home and all their possessions, and theirs wasn’t an isolated incident. I’ve heard of hundreds of people who were asked to leave their homes temporarily, only to have them taken from them. If somebody did that to me, I’d want to blow them up too.
Crap, I hate it when I forget important stuff in my posts.
First of all, so we don’t get started on the whole “Islam is backward and ignorant” thing, some things to consider:
1)As a religion, Islam is not incompatible with Judaism (or Christianity, for that matter). Morrocco is a country where Jews, Muslims, and Christians all live peacefully.
2)Much of what people believe to be Islam is really fundamentalist teachings, which are IMO wrong. I think fundamentalism in any form is bad. Look at fundamentalist Christians. Some of them think there’s nothing wrong with killing gay people. Sorta forgot the whole “love thy neighbor” and “let he who is without sin cast the first stone” thing, didn’t they?
3)Jihad is interpretted by fundamentalists to mean, “blow up Jews.” Most Muslims believe that Mohammed was talking about an internal jihad- the struggle each Muslim goes through trying to be a good person.
4)The Koran does allow for war in self-defense or to acquire new lands, but women, children, the elderly, and non-combatants are not to be hurt. If Muslims conquer a territory, the inhabitants can be asked if they wish to convert, but if they don’t want to, they must be allowed to practice their own religion.
5)(Non-fundamentalist) Islam does not oppress women. The hijab (the veil) is not a requirement, it is a personal choice. It is a sign of modesty, much like a devout Christian woman wouldn’t wear a halter top and daisy dukes. And in many Muslim countries, the women are just as educated as in the west. In Saudi Arabia, I believe, they actually have a higher percentage of women engineers than in the US.
I seriously considered converting to Islam for a while, but then I realized- ok I’m Catholic and I haven’t been to church in years, am I really going to pray 5 times a day? And I like beer and bacon. But it’s really a very misunderstood religion, which always pisses me off.
Not going to comment on Isreal.
Northern Ireland… now THAT I can talk about.
You know the way that gangs (eg Bloods and Crips) are essentially exactly the same but still hate each other?
You know the way that in socially disadvantaged areas young men join gangs because it gives them a sense of family and self esteem?
You know the way these gangs get their money from drugs, and sometimes get help from dirty cops?
You know the way these gangs impose a certain kind of street discipline?
You know the way that these gangs are pretty separate from the lives of middle class people?
You know the way you can’t solve a dispute if neither side will talk to the other, and nobody trusts each other enough to give up their guns first?
Well it’s like that.
Find a way to solve the problems in the ghettoes and projects of the USA, and you can solve Northern Ireland.
Do any of you live (or did you live) in N Ireland? All the newspaper articles and essays and books I’ve read about it don’t really go into the day-to-day life there. Someone gave an example of Loyalists throwing rocks at Nationalists (and in the past, pipe bombs). How often does that happen? Do Loyalists and Nationalists interact on a day-to-day basis? I know some of their schools are integrated, right? How much is the average resident affected by the conflict?
All due respect, irishgirl, but portraying the conflict as entirely class-based is as simplistic as portraying it as entirely religion-based. Don’t forget that the (modern) conflict started precisely when Catholics started getting out of the ghettoes.
seaworthy, pipe bomb attacks aren’t in the past.
The person you are referring to is Joseph Plunkett.
you can find his (short) biography here:
NevarMore : How about they trade? We ship the N Irish to the Middle East and the Israelis to Northern Ireland.
Now that would be interesting, im sure the Israeli army wouldnt stop at the border to apprehend terrorists.
seaworthy : Do any of you live (or did you live) in N Ireland? All the newspaper articles and essays and books I’ve read about it don’t really go into the day-to-day life there. Someone gave an example of Loyalists throwing rocks at Nationalists (and in the past, pipe bombs). How often does that happen? Do Loyalists and Nationalists interact on a day-to-day basis? I know some of their schools are integrated, right? How much is the average resident affected by the conflict?
Im opening myself up for some real flack here, but i spent some interesting times in NI, i was in the British Army and had 2 tours there. Basically its a case of extremes on both sides of the divide. There are Loyalist and Nationalist areas, where support is strong and unbending. then there are areas where people tend to mix more freely. Unfortunately i spent my time in the former, much of the peoples attitude toward us was based on fear, in these areas people are not allowed to be neutral in thier attitudes, there were punishments inflicted on people for talking to soldiers in a friendly way, and on the Loyalist side punishments were handed out to people for being friendly with Catholics.
For what its worth, my solution to the problems in Ireland and to some extent Israel/Palestine is for an equivelant “Night of the long knives” round up all known
extemists on both sides, keep them out of the general population and hopefully people would be able to mix and interact withoout fear of reprisals from thier own.
Now you can all shoot me down in flames
Unfortunately, they tried it before with internment, and it proved to be a polariser, driving more people into the arms of the terror groups than if it had never happened. Also, what do you do when the extreme positions receive more votes than the moderates? (And in Israel, this would mean rounding up the ruling party too…)
I think that a positive step forward for Northern Ireland would be for an end to the system of segregated schools that have prevented children making friendships across the divide for decades. It is simply impossible for the situation to improve if large majority of children grow up with no contact with children from the other community. There are obvious logistical nightmares with actually trying to integrate Northern Ireland’s schools, but it is hard to see any solution that doesn’t involve doing just that. We need our very own Brown v. Board of Education, but I can’t really see it ever happening.
I was lucky enough to spent a fortnight in Portsmouth, NH, as part of a cross-community programme with Northern Irish Catholics, Protestants, Israelis and Palestinians. It was probably the most fun I’ve ever had. What struck me was how, in the absence of the atmosphere of home, how well everyone got on. There was no hint of tension, there was just a crowd of teenagers doing normal teenage things. Talking and reasoned debate, not posturing and violence.
The solution to these conflicts, like all conflicts, is through dialogue. Any talk of military-based solutions is counter-productive. We all need to look at the way our children are raised to see how the future is going to be. And it doesn’t look good.
Just before I answer this I’d like to point out to the_bean that much of the most reasonable and considered comments on the situation in Northern Ireland I’ve come across have been from British soldiers who’ve done a tour there another interesting theme is that often its Loyalist and Republicans who’ve served time in prison and read up on their histories that are the most committed to peace.
I was sorely disspointed when the PUP and other Loyalist political groups didn’t receive seats in the Assembly, and I say that as a nationalist, embracing those people within the political process is exactly what needs to happen, not excluding them.
Anyway, back to the scheduled program…growing up in Northern Ireland.
I was born in 1978 so most of my life was spent growing up surrounded by the Troubles, however I come from one of the more peaceful parts of the country, the Glens of Antrim if that means anything to anybody:
“An Ulsterman I am proud to be, from Antrim glen I come!” 
Its a geographically isolated area of approximately 10’000 people, 99.99% of whom are Catholic, its also an area of Republican leanings…however its in the north east of Co. Antrim, one of the strongholds of hardcore Unionism.
Ian Paisley is my MP which may give you some idea.
For myself the troubles were a fairly distant but continuous background noise to life, they’ve only impacted me directly a couple of times in 25 years, however those incidents were more than enough, terrorism is a really fucking horrible thing, not that anyone needs any convincing.
I’ve been very nearly blown up at least twice.
The best way to describe life in NI is that its a society of constant low level paranoia, everyone has a mental checklist of questions to determine the allegiance of people they meet, are they one of them or one of us?
I remember as a young child watching the news in the morning and on hearing that yet another policeman had been killed by a bomb underneath his car turning the station to find something interesting, that sort of thing was entirely normal and I just assumed it was the same everywhere else in the world.
I didn’t know any Protestants until I went to university (and ironically became friends with a DUP member!)
A story and I’d be interested if any other of the Northern Irish posters could confirm it because I’ve never been able to find out exactly what happened.
In 1996 (possibly 97) the Drumcree situation was reaching flashpoint, the tension was literally indescribable, Paisley was calling for the final stand of Unionism and there was a real feeling in the air that this was it
Now was the moment when the future of NI would be determined, anything could have sparked a slide into real civil war.
I was staying at a friends house with a few others and in the early hours of the morning a newsflash came on, I remember the fear in the newsreaders eyes clearly…“There have been reports that the Irish Army is moving north to “reinforce” the border”…thats all. We all knew what that meant, if they came across the border all hell really would kick loose. A few minutes later we heard a distant rumbling noise and ran outside…across the sea at really low level and with all lights off a number of helicopters came racing towards us and over head.
Several small helicopters in formation flanking a chinook heading inland at high speed.
We went inside and discussed what we would do when it started, total honesty, some of us said we would stay and fight others side they would leave and go overseas…a real moment of truth situation for all of us and there was no shame in any of the decisions, afterwards we could all look each other in the eye.
For myself that was the highpoint of tension that I can remember, afterwards though things were bad on occasion the situation was slowly calming down and real peace seemed possible. I wonder exactly what occured that night and I believe that all of NI stood on the edge of an abyss and most people never even knew how close we came…
Well thats a small fragment of my experience of life in Northern Ireland. Any questions seaworthy and I’ll be happy to answer.
BTW Statistics, a study in 1987 concluded that 1 in 2 people in NI knew a friend or acquaintance that had been killed in the conflict and that 1 in 10 had lost a family member…and there was still ten more years of fighting to go…
I read somewhere, don’t quote me on the validity, that as a percentage of the population the troubles were fought at a greater intensity of the Vietnam war, this is a really small place with a population of around 1.5 million.
Apolgies that post makes no sense but it is 2am here…
I’m not sure what you mean by this. The PUP have always had seats in the Assembly (although they’re down to only one now). They didn’t have any seats in the Executive, but they weren’t “excluded” per se, two Assembly seats just isn’t enough to win a Ministerial post under the D’Hondt system.
Incidentally, there is an argument that the “loyalist” - by which I assume you mean paramilitary-linked - parties have done poorly at the polls not because they are loyalist but because they aren’t loyalist enough. The PUP, in particular, has always been more forward-looking on relations with the nationalist community than the loyalist grass roots would be. According to this argument (which I believe has some merit), a significant proportion of the loyalist paramilitaries and their supporters would favour the DUP’s hardline stance when and if they go to the polls.
professorbiscuit, an interesting factoid that a lot of people don’t know is that way back in 1923 the Craig Government in the Northern parliament passed a bill providing for a secular education system. It was opposed by the Catholic, Presbyterian, Church of Ireland and Methodist Churches as well as the Orange Order and within a decade religion had been put back into the curriculum and the state schools were effectively Protestant schools. I’m not really sure it would have made that much a difference if the policy had succeeded, but you can speculate.
ruadh, there is an important distinction between Catholic and Protestant opposition to the 1923 Education Act. The Catholic church refused to sit on the committee, who maintained
‘in view of pending changes in Irish education, we wish to reassert the great fundamental principle that the only satisfactory system of education for Catholics is one wherein Catholic children are taught in Catholic schools by Catholic teachers under Catholic auspices’
This, combined with a widespread campaign of non-co-operation with the Northern Irish government by Catholic schools, and a non-recognition of the Northern education ministry by the Dublin government who persisted in paying the salaries of Northern Catholic teachers, made it very difficult on the NI goverment to take into account Catholic opinion when creating the act.
Protestant lobbying eventually led to an amendment of the Act allowing bible instruction in state schools in 1930, creating the perception amongst the Catholic community that state schools. It is important to note that while Catholics campaigned extensively for denominationalism in NI schools, Protestants did not. There is a case that the Catholic church at the time was the most guilty of intransigence. Your assertion that religion was ‘put back into curriculum’ to satisfy popular demand is somewhat simplistic.
I find it interesting that you seem suggest that integrated schools wouldn’t ‘have made a difference’. A difference to what is unclear, but I assume that you mean a difference to the conflict in Northern Ireland. This would fly in the face of the example of other divided societies such as South Africa and the US, where integrated schooling has quite clearly had a positive role in promoting tolerance and understanding in society, in these examples where race was and is a dividing factor.
Northern Irish opinion polls have continually shown support for integrated schools, and such schools are continually oversubscribed. I believe that it is self-evident that teaching children tolerance and respect must be a way in which divided societies can heal. If you disagree, I would be very interested to hear your argument. But citing popular support for segregated schools, citing the Education Act of 1930, isn’t entirely convincing.
ahem,
Protestant lobbying eventually led to an amendment of the Act allowing bible instruction in state schools in 1930, creating the perception amongst the Catholic community that state schools were Protestant schools.