what will it take for peace in N Ireland and Israel?

[ruadh]

@professorbiscuit

It is important to note that while Catholics campaigned extensively for denominationalism in NI schools, Protestants did not.

Well, I suppose it depends on how you define “denominationalism”. Protestants may not actually have called for separate schools for their children and Catholics but they most certainly did campaign to keep religious instruction in the schools and for “Protestant teachers to teach Protestant children”. See Michael Farrell’s Northern Ireland: the Orange State (p. 102) and Jonathan Bardon’s A History of Ulster (pp. 503-4) (the latter further citing D.H. Akenson’s Education and Enmity: The Control of Schooling in Northern Ireland 1920-50). And unless you’re suggesting that they thought Catholics would happily send their own children to these schools, effectively this amounted to a call for denominationalism.

I find it interesting that you seem suggest that integrated schools wouldn’t ‘have made a difference’. A difference to what is unclear, but I assume that you mean a difference to the conflict in Northern Ireland. This would fly in the face of the example of other divided societies such as South Africa and the US, where integrated schooling has quite clearly had a positive role in promoting tolerance and understanding in society, in these examples where race was and is a dividing factor.

I actually said “that much of a difference”, which is somewhat different to none at all. Having attended integrated schools in the US myself I’m well aware of the fact that they in and of themselves only go so far in promoting tolerance and understanding; racial (or in the North’s case religious) prejudice has ample opportunities to rear its ugly head when the children leave their integrated schools.

And of course, Northern Ireland has the additional dimension of a substantial proportion of its population not recognising its legitimacy in the first place. Most people involved in physical force republicanism will tell you they have nothing against Protestants personally, they just don’t think they have the right to dictate which flag flies over the Six Counties. Integrated schools would not turn republicans into unionists.

Northern Irish opinion polls have continually shown support for integrated schools, and such schools are continually oversubscribed.

True, but the old axiom about polls only measuring what people tell pollsters is always particularly appropriate in the North’s case. Just because people believe in integrated schools doesn’t mean they’d want their own children to go to one. It tells you something when even the (pro-integration) Education Minister is only willing to set a target of 10% attendance at mixed schools.

But citing popular support for segregated schools, citing the Education Act of 1930, isn’t entirely convincing.

Although I don’t think attitudes have changed as greatly as you seem to think, please note that nowhere did I say that the 1930 Education Act is evidence of what people think in 2004.

[mogiaw]

If I were a political leader in Northern Ireland I would try to get the book *Lost Lives: The Stories of the Men, Women and Children Who Died Through the Northern Ireland Troubles * by David McKittrick put on the secondary school curriculum (in both the republic and NI). It contains a biography of every victim of the NI troubles up to the point of publication. I used to be republican but after reading that book at about age 17 it put me off any sort of strong political stance on NI.
Mogi

[jjimm]

@ruadh

I actually said “that much of a difference”, which is somewhat different to none at all. Having attended integrated schools in the US myself I’m well aware of the fact that they in and of themselves only go so far in promoting tolerance and understanding; racial (or in the North’s case religious) prejudice has ample opportunities to rear its ugly head when the children leave their integrated schools.

It’s all a matter of opinion, but having been speaking to a friend of mine who’s marrying an NI protestant recently, I think it would go a hell of a lot further than the situation at the present. This guy, from a rural area, had never knowingly met a Catholic until he went to university. He supposed there were a few he may have spoken to in shops and so on, but that was it for the first 20 years of his life. If this isn’t just an isolated incident, then separate education must clearly be a massive hindrance to any form of mutual understanding.

[ruadh]

jjimm, the key point in that anecdote is the geographic/residential segregation that exists in so many parts of the North. There are a large number of areas where any significant degree of integration would require busing, with all the opposition that would meet. Have a look at this map, and tell me how you’re going to get all the children of southeast Larne or Newry/Mourne into integrated schools?

(Just to emphasise - I’m not saying integrated schools aren’t worth the effort, simply that they’re far from being a panacea.)

[ruadh]

Bollocks, I seem to have omitted a sentence in that post. Please insert after “meet”:

And in some areas you’d be lucky to find enough children of the “minority” religion to integrate the schools even with busing.

[Aro]

Without wading through or into the entire discussion, I would just like to make a few passing comments on the topic of integrated education in Northern Ireland:

There is an organisation called NICIE (Northern Ireland Council for Integrated Education) who built and maintain a growing number of schools in NI. Many of these new schools are on the cusps of troubled areas (between south / west Belfast for example), and can act as a shared link or overlap between otherwise disparate and non-interactive cultures. I think the point Ruadh was making about Newry / Mourne and Larne areas is correct - integrated schooling is really only a viable option on edges of communities where both ‘sides’ (I hate that terminology) can participate and attend - it is of no real value in communities where the vast majority or total number of pupils are from one or other tradition.

I believe the number of new Integrated schools have been growing rapidly over the past few years (having designed several of them personally in the past 5 years), but they have now reached a plateau of funding. The level of integrated education ‘cover’ is now static at about 5-6% of all primary school pupils in NI.

Most, if not all, of the schools have grown out of a concerted effort by parents working with cross-community groups, who brought pressure on government bodies to fund the school they wanted for their children. From this perspective, the idea of integrated education facilities can only be brought to fruition in areas where is actively sought by the parents of those who will be taught there. It will not be an solution in areas where it would have to be ‘enforced’ as an option.

I do think it is an admirable and positive step forward in most respects, but it is far short of any kind of permanent solution to the deep divides still existing within communities.

[jjimm]

I stand corrected on my anecdote. And I don’t think busing is a very good idea. But the thought that children from bigoted families being told that the other “side” all have two heads and tails, and never have the opportunity to find out that this is wrong, is pretty tragic.

[smiling_bandit]

Posts on Israel/Palestine

If I were a political leader in Israel, I would fight for a one-state solution: A single republic which would include the occupied territories and include the Arabs as fully enfranchised citizens with representation in the Knesset. In the long run, it’s the only thing that can work.

??? If you gave the Palestinians a choice, I think they would prefer full Israeli citizenship to independence. Why would they want to elect a mad bomber to the Knesset? It they are annexed and enfranchised, it is now their Knesset.

No, because the numbers of Arabs and Jews in the state would be roughly equivalent, neither able to utterly dominate the other in political terms; and neither ethnic group is entirely dominated by its religious extremists.

While I applaud your idealism, I think you fail ultimately to understand one important, central fact: The Palestinians HATE Israelis. They have willingly embraced a societal deathwish in order to mildly hurt Israel. They continue a savage campaign of murder not because they are righteously fighting against oppression but because they want to conquer, kill, or enslave Israel.

The Israelis cannot trust the Palestinians. Given a choice, the Palestinians will killl them. It’ll be the Holocaust all over again.

Every important Palestinian leader is using this hatred for their own benefit, stoking it hot and using it to make their bread. The big names in terrorism there are all political factions using murder to gain street cred, including Arafat’s own party.

The violence will stop as soon as one ting happens: when ordinary Palestinians choose to make it stop. When people decide that they are tired of heaping misery on themselves and stop following the guys who blow up pizzarias for kicks. Palestinians do not want this future, not yet. They want to drive Israel into the sea. Arafat gets up now and then and mouths empty words to the outside world, but he hasn’t changed his modus operandi. He’s still a violent butcher. And his potential successors are as bad.

Israel has the power to wipe out Palestine, but they do not choose it. Frankly, I wouldn’t have been so patient. Had the Palestinians tried this crap on my people I’d be advocating driving them out and letting the Lebanese deal with them. As far as I’m concerned, Israel’s restraint is awe-inspiring.

Once again, I am glad tyhat you see so much goodwill in the world, btu I think your idealism is running past your wisdom.

A word to the wise: don’t talk to me about “social justice”, “revenge” or even “fairness”. World politics has never been and should never be about fair. It’s not fair that the Israels should have palestinians kill them in the streets, but they don’t get fair. If it were about fair, most of the palestinians would already be burning in the hell that awaits them in the hereafter. I don’t care whjat happened a half-century ago. That’s done and gone. I care about what happens now.

[seaworthy]

@smiling bandit

A word to the wise: don’t talk to me about “social justice”, “revenge” or even “fairness”. World politics has never been and should never be about fair. It’s not fair that the Israels should have palestinians kill them in the streets, but they don’t get fair. If it were about fair, most of the palestinians would already be burning in the hell that awaits them in the hereafter. I don’t care whjat happened a half-century ago. That’s done and gone. I care about what happens now.

First of all, I think you’re putting all the blame on the Palestinians, like the Israelis just wandered into Palestine and the Palestinians started blowing them up.

But the real point I want to make about both NI and Israel is that what happened half a century ago (or a century ago, or even longer) is what the militants on both sides are thinking about. Some book I read about NI described it as the militants having a long memory, and not being willing to let the past go. (NI residents, feel free to disagree, as I have no firsthand knowledge of this) So while you may not care about the past, that’s all the militants do care about- “righting” past “wrongs.”

[ruadh]

@seaworthy

But the real point I want to make about both NI and Israel is that what happened half a century ago (or a century ago, or even longer) is what the militants on both sides are thinking about. Some book I read about NI described it as the militants having a long memory, and not being willing to let the past go. (NI residents, feel free to disagree, as I have no firsthand knowledge of this)

Again, it’s just too simplistic an explanation. Yes, part of the reason nationalists don’t want to remain part of the UK is because they remember past events (though events within the past 35 years would be just as if not more significant than earlier ones), but part of it is because of ongoing incidents which tell them that things haven’t really changed much. On the unionist side I’d argue it’s fear of the future that motivates the “militants” more than anything in the past. I think that blaming it all on old grudges is just a avoidance device - you don’t have to deal with the very real issues the two communities face now if you can convince yourself they’re all just living in the past.

[seaworthy]

Ok so it is a bit simplistic to say that all the militants are living totally in the past. I just have a bad habit of always using the superlative.

But to reach an agreement in Israel and NI that everyone is happy with, you have to address both the present and the past. The past has shaped the present, you can’t completely separate the two. (Listen to me, can’t you tell I’m a history major?) My point was that old grudges still play a role in the conflicts, you can’t pretend they don’t.

[smiling_bandit]

I’m a history student, too (well, I was until a few months ago). It gives one perspective, neh?

First of all, I think you’re putting all the blame on the Palestinians, like the Israelis just wandered into Palestine and the Palestinians started blowing them up.

No, I don’t care about blame. Blame is what people look at to avoid having to find a solution. My own analysis strongly sees the only likely solution involving Palestinians giving up their cause. Every other scenario I can craft results in the Israelis being killed en masse. It’s not a matter of addressing the past - people have to let it go. The right of return the Palestinians want isn’t simply the right to live in the other half of Jerusalem - they want everything they lost back. Or, more accurately, they want everything their parents or grandparents lost. And that’s not possible and it’s not right.

And if it’s blame you want to assign, we can all go back and blame the Nazis, or whatever caused them, or what. People have a responsibility to choose on theior own, here and now, to end it.

Now, in parctical terms, Israel has given the Palestinians many chances. At each stage of the game, they call Arafat’s bluffs and ante up, and Arafat always folds because he knows he can’t play. So he calls in his cousins to kick over the table. And his cousins want to play, too, so their trying to rock his chair and Israel’s chair to get a seat of their own.

I think in practical terms, the low grade war there will last at least until the Palestinians devolve into civil war. This won’t be well reported, since it will be at least as much a war of assassination as open fighting, and much of that will be low-grade attacks, doing nothign more than taking a city block at a time. And this war is likely to be sparked by the wall israel is building.

The wall itself is not the most important part, but it will decrease the incidence of terrorism. Which is all that’s required. If stymied in that angle, the Palesitnian terror groups will turn on each other like rabid dogs.

[ruadh]

@seaworthy

My point was that old grudges still play a role in the conflicts, you can’t pretend they don’t.

Well of course they play a role, but so do a lot of other things. That was my point.

[Rune]

BrainGlutton, as you say, your plan is nothing more than the end of Israel. While this would certainly go some way to creating peace in the region (of course then all the Arab leaders always droning on about Israel would have to conjure up another scapegoat for their own incompetent leadership) there is no trick to having peace if you’re allowed to annihilate one of the parties. The trick is to have peace with both sides, more or less, satisfied. I might as well say: the way to achieve peace is through all (non-Jewish) Arabs converting to Judaism then they could legally immigrate to Israel.
I think one of the biggest obstacles to peace in Israel / Palestine is that so many outside forces are using this conflict to further own interests. E.g. Arab leaders and populations using it to soak up blame for all their own incompetence, minority complexes and faults. European leftists grouping using it as the last respectable refuge in their eternal crusade against evil European and American anti-imperialist in support of the downtrodden masses. Etc. If everybody outside Israel and Palestine would give them the time of day deserved by the real size of the conflict judged on how many people are directly involved, compared to the many, many other conflict around the globe things would cool down quicker than you could say Arafat-on-a-pongo stick. Take Israel off the front-page and much will be solved by itself.

Hasn’t the conflict in northern Ireland if not wholly defused then at least been brought pretty much under control? Anyway I’d think the EU would be able to have a positive influence on this conflict; that’s what it was created for in the first place.
”We will only have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us." Golda Meir

• Rune