They wouldn’t have followed her for her vision of Brexit, which literally no-one wants, especially in the Tory party. There’s a small amount who would not accept Brexit on any terms, but that’s more than enough to overcome the tiny minority she had back then. There’s a far larger amount who would never accept and form of deal.
It’s absolutely clear, though, that at every point in recent memory there’s been a majority in the Commons for remaining in the EU because they see the disaster and chaos that will come from leaving. The minority that want to leave are either on the right and think they can profit from that chaos (Rees-Mogg and his ilk), those who think they can build a socialist utopia from the ruins (Corbyn and his cronies), or the likes of Johnson who think they can get power by supporting it for now.
That’s why no Tory government, despite the idiotic wishes of the membership, has been able to push through leaving, why Cameron was forced to have a referendum, and why we’re in the current mess. There’s never been a Labour government that’s wanted to leave because, prior to Corbyn, they’ve kept their extremists muzzled for decades and had no hope of power in the early 80s, the last time the hard-liners lead the party.
About the only thing that Parliament has successfully voted on regarding Brexit in the last two years it that we won’t leave without a deal - and it is (to put it mildly) questionable whether they can actually enforce that. But it’s clear that most of them recognise the damage it will do.
Well it looks like an almost 3 way tie between the leave group, the remain group, and the traditional parties but the leave bloc is the biggest. What this means I don’t know.
Why would you not put both the Tories and Labour in the leave bloc? It’s the position of both parties to “respect the result of the referendum” and leave the EU. The quotes are there because that’s the exact phrase used by the party to a friend of mine, who is a Labour member, when she asked why they weren’t campaigning to remain. She voted Green in the end, and is seriously considering leaving the party, something I could see happening a lot.
So, that’s around 60% voting for Leave (I don’t know the positions of all the parties that got 1 or 2 %). The only positive, if you can call it that, is the abysmal turnout of 36%, but most of the population not caring is a pretty big problem of itself.
I really need to find a nice Irish lady or gentleman to marry and take me out of here, I can honestly say this is the first time in my life I’m actually upset to be English.
No, it won’t. That’s the whole bloody point, we will be leaving the group that sets the rules we will have to abide by and it will be completely out of our hands. Trading with the EU on WTO terms - the only choice it is in our hands to make - would be an unmitigated disaster. We need a trade deal with the EU, and it is impossible that we can make one that is not materially worse than the one we have by being a member - and we will have to make more concessions than we make now to get it.
It will take decades to sort that out, and it will in fact be chaos while that’s happening. No-one with expertise and good faith is saying otherwise, and most of those who are saying otherwise are hoping to profit from the disaster.
If things were perfectly fine, then why did the UK join the EU in the first place?
“The choice is clear. We can play a role in developing Europe or we can turn our backs. By turning our backs we would forfeit our right to influence what happens. But what happens will inevitably affect us.”
— Margaret Thatcher, 1975
The rise of a large EU trading block changed the whole situation, and left the UK at a disadvantage outside. That effect is far larger today than it was in the 1970s.
Question for Leave supporters: a lot of MEPs from nationalist parties have just been elected by other EU members, with expressed goals of reforming the EU, reducing immigration, returning sovereignty to members etc. Does the possibility of change from within alter your views on Brexit at all?
We’ve had 45 years of integration since then, it will take almost as long to get us out. And back to the situation we were in then, which as others have pointed out was not “perfectly fine”.
You are simply wrong about this. 3 years ago, at the referendum, that would have been understandable - after all, we were all lied to by the Leave campaign and Remain did a shitty job of countering it. But now, when we’ve already started to see the effects before even leaving, and with all the expert opinion available, believing that leaving the EU won’t cause serious economic harm to the country is like believing that vaccines cause autism.
If you think that major economic harm is an acceptable trade off for whatever we’ll get out of Brexit, then say so, make that argument. Explain how “sovereignty” is more important than a good economy, or explain how getting rid of all the EU immigrants who contribute to our society and economy will somehow benefit us.
You think it takes a few weeks to go from sick man to economic powerhouse? The Three Day Week power crisis and labour market stuff like cadavers piling up in their hundreds in a factory were symptoms of the economic state the country had sunk to before the EC Referendum. It would be naive in the extreme to think there’d be a magical change from '73 to '75.
Economic downturns can happen in a day. Economic strengthening takes years of graft. A lesson the UK is going to have to learn all over again, I guess.
Well, I say UK, time will tell on that as well…
No, I haven’t, but the EU isn’t some magician that will turn a country’s economy from “terrible” to “thriving” overnight.
Also, note that by the late 1980s (i.e. 15 years after joining the EU), the British GDP growth rate was one of the highest of any country on the continent. The reasons for that are complex, but still it’s undeniable that the UK economy was in shambles before joining the EU and… the opposite after joining.
Theresa May: “A very disappointing night for the Conservatives… but Labour have also suffered big losses. It shows the importance of finding a Brexit deal, and I sincerely hope these results focus minds in Parliament.”
Translation: “It’s not too late to vote for my withdrawal agreement, you know!”
Adding up the vote shares I make it 34.9% for parties demanding a hard Brexit, 40.4% for parties opposing Brexit, and only 23.2% for parties supporting some kind of deal (aka Labour and the Tories). So much for compromise.
Quoted for truth. The progress towards greater political integration makes it more important, not less, that the UK should be an active and enthusiastic member state. There is no going back to the UK being an independent great power. We can either be a leading nation within the EU or a declining irrelevance outside it.
Personally, typing this after a hard morning’s sightseeing in Bologna, I have no conception why so many English people do not love being full Europeans. It is beyond my understanding. What is not to like?
All political discourse in the UK describes social, political and economic outcomes with hyperbole. Best to accept it. Compared to things which are routinely described as dreadful, a no deal Brexit really would be catastrophic.
You should not score Labour votes as leavers since it really wasn’t a second referendum. It seems clear to me that, of those who voted last week (a huge caveat), the majority (albeit a small one) is now remain. Lib Dem and Green > Brexit and UKIP, Labour > Conservative, the minor parties all lean towards remain.
I feel your pain. For the first time in my life I am toying with the idea of embracing Scottish nationalism, nauseating as that prospect is.
(Note I am a slow typist - this post should really be about ten posts earlier :))
Well, as I said, Labour members both for and against Brexit think as I do on this, and those against Brexit voted Green. I’m not sure what other reason someone could have for voting Labour in this particular election, as the party’s policy is to leave, and so not have any MEPs come October.
