What words, when mispronounced, set your teeth on edge?

[Cicero]

Trait

[Hellestal]

@InvisibleWombat

Bravo, Kendall Jackson. Well written. I’d enjoy reading a book on this subject written in the style of that post.

I appreciate this.

It’s generally my intent to try to make the facts of language change more interesting and accessible, but I can’t honestly say that I consistently succeed at that. I’m glad to hear when I achieve a better result than my efforts normally produce.

[Kalhoun]

@Indistinguishable

A) On what grounds do you assume that these people hear it pronounced most often without the /t/? People generally absorb their pronunciations unconsciously from the pronunciations common in the speech communities around them, so it is highly likely that anyone who pronounces the /t/ grew up around other people who generally pronounced the /t/

B) What’s this about “look up… the preferred pronunciation”? Have you looked it up? Every major dictionary lists both pronunciations. (Besides, this is an odd duty to impose; the vast majority of words in anyone’s vocabulary are ones they’ve never looked up in a dictionary. You only go to a dictionary when you have some reason to, and considering A), such reason isn’t generally present here.)

C) Given A) and B), why should they shift their pronunciation? It’s hardly condemnable laziness to not engage in pointless remoulding.

Yes, I did look it up, because I heard it occasionally pronounced the “non-preferred” way. I acknowledge it has become more common recently to hear the second or third preference, but “offen” is still the preferred pronunciation in every dictionary I’ve checked.

Nookular is widely considered to be an incorrect pronunciation, too. However, this common mispronunciation will probably be listed as an alternate pronunciation in 20 years. That doesn’t mean it won’t be cringe-worthy.

[Hellestal]

@Kalhoun

Yes, I did look it up, because I heard it occasionally pronounced the “non-preferred” way. I acknowledge it has become more common recently to hear the second or third preference, but “offen” is still the preferred pronunciation in every dictionary I’ve checked.

I’m not sure what you mean by this. It’s listed first in most dictionaries, but that doesn’t necessarily mean anything. To use a previous example, the pronunciation “fort” of the word forte is listed first at Merriam-Webster, but that pronunciation is almost completely dead now. I don’t recall ever hearing it in regular speech. The only reason that it’s first is because it’s older. But a smart speaker would avoid it because practically no one today would understand the meaning.

@Kalhoun

Nookular is widely considered to be an incorrect pronunciation, too. However, this common mispronunciation will probably be listed as an alternate pronunciation in 20 years. That doesn’t mean it won’t be cringe-worthy.

Twenty years, huh? I doubt it will take that long.

[Kalhoun]

@Kendall Jackson

I’m not sure what you mean by this. It’s listed first in most dictionaries, but that doesn’t necessarily mean anything. To use a previous example, the pronunciation “fort” of the word forte is listed first at Merriam-Webster, but that pronunciation is almost completely dead now. I don’t recall ever hearing it in regular speech. The only reason that it’s first is because it’s older. But a smart speaker would avoid it because practically no one today would understand the meaning.Twenty years, huh? I doubt it will take that long.

In nearly every dictionary, the preferred pronunciation is listed first. It has nothing to do with oldest.
Yourdictionary.com lists “offen” first
Merriam Webster on line lists “offen” first
Dictionary.com lists “offen” first

According to Wikipedia:

often (help·info) - (1)(a) /ˈɔːfən/ (b) /ˈɑːfən/ (c) /ˈɒfən/, (2)(a) /ˈɔːftən/ (b) /ˈɑːftən/ (c) /ˈɒf-/. Some dictionaries list (2) as the preferred British pronunciation, although according to LPD a poll among British speakers revealed 73% preferred (1) and only 27% (2). Most post-1990 American dictionaries list both pronunciations, but some pre-1990 dictionaries list only (1).

I’ve acknowledged these mispronunciations gain acceptance. However, I won’t be using Nook-u-ler any time soon.

[SharkB8]

@Kendall Jackson

Twenty years, huh? I doubt it will take that long.

Does anyone actually say NEW-kyuh-lis? As in, NEW-kyuh-ler means of or pertaining to the NEW-kyuh-lis?

Deoxyrhibo new-kyoo-LAY-ic acid?

Holy crap, if I heard that I might very well get violent.

[Influential_Panda]

I prefer the sound of “new-kyoo-LAY-ic”, just purely from the way it sounds on the ears. Nice and musical.

But I’ll kill you twelve times before you hit the ground if I catch any of you saying it.

[Indistinguishable]

@Kalhoun

In nearly every dictionary, the preferred pronunciation is listed first. It has nothing to do with oldest.

A) Cite that the first pronunciation is generally the “preferred” pronunciation in most dictionaries? E.g., dictionaries give two common pronunciations of “either”; should I take the first to be the “preferred” one?

B) Do you really want to impose a standard that everyone has a duty to switch their pronunciations of all words to one listed first in every dictionary? That no variation in pronunciation is acceptable whatsoever? I wouldn’t meet this standard (well, of course not; I pronounce “often” with a /t/), and I’ll bet large sums of cash you wouldn’t either.

[Mama_Zappa]

@Nobody

@Rubystreak

View Post
mischievous as mis-chee-vee-ous

How do you say it?

As there’s no ‘I’ after ‘V’, “Miss-chih-vous”. If it were spelled “mischievIous”, then the other pronunciation might work.

How about “Orientate” instead of “orient” (the verb, not the Far East). :::cringe:::

@Cisco

Very few words can really set my teeth on edge. I used to really hate NevAHda, ColorAHdo, Or-uh-gon, and Hahll-oween, but I’m pretty meh about it now.

Re nevAHda and colorAHdo, how would you pronounce them? I always assumed that as they’re Spanish words, the ‘a’ in Nevada and in Colorado would indeed be pronounced like ‘ah’ (to rhyme with “top”) rather than short-a (to rhyme with “hat”). The short-a version sounds wrong wrong wrong to me.

[diggleblop]

Idea= when people pronounces it, “Idear”. If you want to see someone do this, watch American Chopper and listen to the Dad talk on that show. He says it that way.

[DrDeth]

@Kalhoun

Nookular is widely considered to be an incorrect pronunciation, too. However, this common mispronunciation will probably be listed as an alternate pronunciation in 20 years. That doesn’t mean it won’t be cringe-worthy.

It’s simply listed as a alternate/second pronuciation imy my two Unabridged, neither one of which are very new.

And the order in which pronuciations are listed rarely has anything to do with which one is more “right”. If both are listed, both are “right” unless there is a caveat.
Again, we just have to get used to the fact that thsi is American English and occassionally, there just is no “One True Way” that both alternates are acceptable.

[DrDeth]

@Mama_Zappa

As there’s no ‘I’ after ‘V’, “Miss-chih-vous”. If it were spelled “mischievIous”, then the other pronunciation might work.

How about “Orientate” instead of “orient” (the verb, not the Far East). :::cringe:::
Re nevAHda and colorAHdo, how would you pronounce them? I always assumed that as they’re Spanish words, the ‘a’ in Nevada and in Colorado would indeed be pronounced like ‘ah’ (to rhyme with “top”) rather than short-a (to rhyme with “hat”). The short-a version sounds wrong wrong wrong to me.

wiki sez :

*The name Nevada comes from the Spanish “Nevada”, meaning “snow-covered”.[5] after the Sierra Nevada (“snow-covered mountains”) mountain range.

In 2005, the state issued a specialty license plate via the Nevada Commission on Tourism that lists the name of the state as Nevăda to help with the pronunciation problem. The local pronunciation of the state’s name is not /nɨˈvɑːdə/ (as in the “a” in “father”), but /nɨˈvæːdə/ (as in the “a” in “glad”).[6] Local residents - particularly natives of the state - resent hearing Nevada’s name pronounced differently in the national media, a problem that has crystallized with increased coverage of the state following the 2008 Presidential Primary Elections.[7]*

[Gary_Robson]

@Mama_Zappa

How about “Orientate” instead of “orient” (the verb, not the Far East). :::cringe:::

This is one of the very, very few words that will actually cause me to correct a coworker. Orient is perfectly good verb. You don’t need to create a complex silly-looking back-conversion from orientation.

[Kalhoun]

@Indistinguishable

A) Cite that the first pronunciation is generally the “preferred” pronunciation in most dictionaries? E.g., dictionaries give two common pronunciations of “either”; should I take the first to be the “preferred” one?

B) Do you really want to impose a standard that everyone has a duty to switch their pronunciations of all words to one listed first in every dictionary? That no variation in pronunciation is acceptable whatsoever? I wouldn’t meet this standard (well, of course not; I pronounce “often” with a /t/), and I’ll bet large sums of cash you wouldn’t either.

The World Book dictionary

Word Smart II

In addition to those internet sites:

The Oxford American dictionary (hardcover) states that when more than one pronunciation is common, the preferred one is listed first.

The American Heritage Dictionary (2000) explicitly states that the first listing is preferred.

The Random House 2nd Edition (Unabridged) (1983) explicitly states that the first listing is preferred.

“Often” also comes up on nearly every list of most commonly mispronounced words.

Yes, you should take the first one as the preferred pronunciation. You are free to use nook-u-lar and off-ten, and you will be be using the least preferred pronunciations. I never said the least preferred was unacceptable; just not preferred.

[Kalhoun]

@DrDeth

It’s simply listed as a alternate/second pronuciation imy my two Unabridged, neither one of which are very new.

And the order in which pronuciations are listed rarely has anything to do with which one is more “right”. If both are listed, both are “right” unless there is a caveat.
Again, we just have to get used to the fact that thsi is American English and occassionally, there just is no “One True Way” that both alternates are acceptable.

I agree that both are acceptable. But one is preferred.

[gigi]

@YoudNeverGuess

Bruschetta as ‘brush-etta’ instead of ‘brusk-etta’. That might come across as a bit pernickety but that’s the first one that came to mind as genuinely irritating to me.

Hee. I corrected someone about this at dinner the other night. They all looked at me baffled, and pretty much gave the impression I was nuts!

[Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker]

@Kalhoun

I agree that both are acceptable. But one is preferred.

Eh, maybe, maybe not.

@Merriam-Webster

The presence of variant pronunciations indicates that not all educated speakers pronounce words the same way. A second-place variant is not to be regarded as less acceptable than the pronunciation that is given first. It may, in fact, be used by as many educated speakers as the first variant, but the requirements of the printed page are such that one must precede the other.

[Indistinguishable]

Indeed. Do you really want to defend the position that of any word, there is a single pronunciation which we all have some small duty to use, on pain of being considered a “slacker”?

I don’t want people to judge me as lazy because I should happen to have acquired the wrong pronunciations through exactly the same amount of effort as others have acquired the ostensibly better ones. Which way should I pronounce “either”? Which way should I pronounce “deity” or “caramel” or “apricot” or “route” or “grocery” or “coupon” or “garage” or “envelope”? (Well, I see positions have already been staked out in this thread on the last two…)

Depending on what you take it to mean, “preferred pronunciation” often either doesn’t exist or is not worth caring about.

[Mrs_Johnson]

nuclear! I went to a district level spelling bee when I was in junior high and the person who spoke the words actually said “newkewler”. I wanted to object even though it wasn’t my word. The girl spelled it incorrectly and was disqualified. Her fault for not knowing the word… but the idiot should have pronounced it properly.

disorientated

irregardless - ir means not; so “not regardless”

idear or ideal instead of idea

yooge instead of huge. Huge isn’t like herb!

ring instead of rink - it’s a skating rink

[Kalhoun]

@Indistinguishable

Indeed. Do you really want to defend the position that of any word, there is a single pronunciation which we all have some small duty to use, on pain of being considered a “slacker”?

I don’t want people to judge me as lazy because I should happen to have acquired the wrong pronunciations through exactly the same amount of effort as others have acquired the ostensibly better ones. Which way should I pronounce “either”? Which way should I pronounce “deity” or “caramel” or “apricot” or “route” or “grocery” or “coupon” or “garage” or “envelope”? (Well, I see positions have already been staked out in this thread on the last two…)

Depending on what you take it to mean, “preferred pronunciation” often either doesn’t exist or is not worth caring about.

You don’t even have the duty to speak English; you can pronounce words however you’d like to. The OP asked a question and I responded, and provided cites to back up my take on the pronunciation. The preference thing exists in every one of the cites I provided. You, on the other hand, have provided nothing *but *your preference. Your pronunciation is widely considered to be incorrect, yet you choose to ignore that and go with what you want to go with. Have at it. You wont’ be jailed or fined. The planet will continue to rotate and the sun will rise tomorrow morning. Opinions on the pronunciation of “often” have relaxed over the years, but “off-ten” is still considered a bad choice. Here’s the PBS take on it: Do You Speak American . What Speech Do We Like Best? . Beastly | PBS

Often AWF-in or AHF-in. Do not pronounce the t.

Before I give you my two cents on the t in often, let’s take a look at what various authorities have said about it since the late 18th century.

John Walker (1791), whose Critical Pronouncing Dictionary was one of the most respected and popular references both in England and America well into the 19th century, declared that “in often and soften the t is silent.”

“The sounding of the t,” proclaims the legendary H.W. Fowler in Modern English Usage (1926), “which as the OED says is ‘not recognized by the dictionaries,’ is practised by two oddly consorted classes—the academic speakers who affect a more precise enunciation than their neighbours…& the uneasy half-literates who like to prove that they can spell….”

“The t in glisten is silent, even as it is in castle and often,” says Frank H. Vizetelly (1929), editor of Funk & Wagnalls New Standard (1913), “yet one occasionally hears pedants and provincials pronounce them [GLIS-ten] and [AWF-ten]. No pronouncing dictionary with a reputation to lose ever sounds the t in these words.”

“You don’t want a t in here any more than in soften,” advises Alfred H. Holt (1937).

Webster 2 (1934), which sanctions only AWF-in, notes that “the pronunciation [AWF-tin], until recently generally considered as more or less illiterate, is not uncommon among the educated in some sections, and is often used in singing.”

According to Random House II (1987),

OFTEN was pronounced with a t- sound until the 17th century, when a pronunciation without the (t) came to predominate in the speech of the educated, in both North America and Great Britain, and the earlier pronunciation fell into disfavor. Common use of a spelling pronunciation has since restored the (t) for many speakers, and today [AWF-in] and [AWF-tin]…exist side by side. Although it is still sometimes criticized, OFTEN with a (t) is now so widely heard from educated speakers that it has become fully standard once again.
“Nowadays,” says R.W. Burchfield (1996), editor of the OED 2 (1989), “many standard speakers use both [AWF-in] and [AWF-tin], but the former pronunciation is the more common of the two.

What is going on here? After two hundred years of censure, has the t in often scratched and clawed its way back into acceptability? I would caution those who might be consoled by the comments of Random House II and Burchfield to heed the admonitions of the past and avoid pronouncing the t. Current dictionaries, including Random House II, do not give priority to AWF-tin, and it is much less common in educated speech and far more often disapproved of by cultivated speakers—particularly teachers of English, drama, and speech—than Random House II makes it appear. In 1932 the English lexicographer Henry Cecil Wyld called AWF-tin “vulgar” and “sham-refined,” and today the bad odor of class-conscious affectation still clings to it as persistently as ever. As if that were not enough, analogy is entirely unsupportive: no one pronounces the t in soften, listen, fasten, moisten, hasten, chaste, christen, and Christmas—so, once and for all, let’s do away with the eccentric AWF-tin.