What would a Libertarian America be like?

Great Debates
1

Suppose the Libertarian Party somehow won a majority in Congress and all state legislatures, plus the presidency and all governorships – or, even without that much electoral success, somehow got into a position to get every single item on its agenda enacted into law – including legalizing controlled substances; decriminalizing all “victimless crimes” such as prostitution; paring down the federal, state, and local governments to a bare minimum in budget and personnel; paring down the military establishment to only that level strictly needed for homeland defense with no projection of power abroad; deregulating business to a degree Reagan never dreamed; completely eliminating Social Security, Medicare, AFDC, and all other elments of the welfare state; slashing all federal, state and local taxes to the bone; and privatizing almost all public services including education.

What would America be like then? What would be the political, social, and economic effects of a consistently Libertarian policy regime?

2

Oh, and open borders, with no limits or controls of any kind on immigration, as mentioned in this thread.

No gun control either – but that wouldn’t make much difference from how things are now.

See the platform of the Libertarian Party if you have any questions about what they stand for.

3

America would become a failed state, assuming they weren’t kicked out. There would be economic and social disasters right and left. Millions would starve without government aid, corporations would run rampant, enslaving and destroying, modern education would be replaced by propaganda mills, American madrasas, the infrastructure would collapse, depressions and inflation would run unchecked, the environment would be poisoned or reduced to desert right and left. There would also be massive violence as people resort to force to solve problems, since the government won’t help. Mexico and Canada would fortify their borders to keep out the floods of heavily armed Americans trying to escape or raid them for food and such.

4

‘Bare minumum’ is a tricky term. I’d personally say that unless the new government was willing to look hard at the effects of each policy, and be ready to say, for example, ‘Whoops. The market isn’t correcting this problem like we thought it would. Look like we’ll have to re-open the public school system.’, Libertopia would end up in the same position as the many Glorious People’s Republics, but with fewer jackboots and more looting.

5

The environment is the big one for me. I’ve asked before, what would prevent corporations from completely destroying the environment if there weren’t laws preventing them from doing so?

I assume the limit would be that the corporations, driven by self interest, would have to have a population just healthy enough to live long enough to reproduce and make the next generation of workers and consumers. The environment would be kept just unpoisoned enough for people to reproduce then die of cancer or emphysema.

6

Pretty much the same chaos that would reign if any political party got pure unopposed power, I suspect.

7

[QUOTE=Bobotheoptimist]
Pretty much the same chaos that would reign if any political party got pure unopposed power, I suspect.
[/QUOTE]

If the Communist Party achieved that, I would not, based on history, call the results “chaos.” Quite the contrary. :wink:

8

If libertarianism had any merit, it would have been tried somewhere else in the world. A libertarian US would probably resemble the laissez-faire US in the late 1800s where business pretty much had free rein to do whatever it wanted and the military was mych smaller. Public works with no profit potential would begin to crumble and the Interstate system would eventually give way to weeds. With no federal oversight, industries from pharmaceutical to aerospace to automotive would throw their concerns for safety out the window and focus their entire attention to the bottom line. The gap between rich and poor would increase dramatically as the lower classes found themselves unable to afford to educate their children. Yep, a real utopia.

9

[QUOTE=BrainGlutton]
If the Communist Party achieved that, I would not, based on history, call the results “chaos.” Quite the contrary. :wink:
[/QUOTE]
Well, yeah… But -
Based on history? Much like libertarianism, isn’t communism more of an ideal than an achievable goal? I don’t know of any true Communist countries, much less any that had only one party, were in existence for any appreciable period, and answered to no one but themselves. Corrupt Marxists we had in abundance.

BobLibDem, sounds like what would happen if the Republicans got the power that was proposed in the OP (opportunity for someone to interject the obligatory “libertarians are just republicans in disguise” comment… You’re welcome). Honestly, I can’t imagine a functional true Democracy in a country of this size, but that doesn’t invalidate the concept entirely IMHO.

To seriously answer BrainGlutton, first remember that just like any other party, the Lib’s aren’t a monolithic culture who blindly follow the party line. So even if they had all that power, there would be infighting between various factions that would sabotage the process. Also, I’m fairly sure there are checks and balances inherent in the system (now) to prevent some of the more outrageous ideas.

Since the party website was given, from the source -
“Libertarians believe you should be able to opt out of Social Security” this might lead to the elimination of SS, if it went on long enough. But I suggest that they wouldn’t stay in power long enough to do much long term damage. (Point of reference, the site mentions Britain and Australia as models to replace SS.)

Crime. While legalizing drugs and prostitution could free up resources, I feel that an increase in druggies would increase several crime rates (thefts and assaults, using non-legalistic definitions) and a good portion of non-pot related drug arrests would happen anyway (I’m in favor of legalizing pot, but not the “hard stuff”)

Environment. A little idealist on this issue, and harkening back to my hero, Thomas Paine, private ownership of public lands is anathema to me. I fear that the environment would suffer in the hands of the Libertarian party if they were in power for more than one term.

Taxes and foreign aid. Tricky damn subject, these. I’d like to seriously reduce our foreign aid, especially since it doesn’t buy us much goodwill when coupled with our other foreign policies. I also can’t see letting people starve just to save me a couple bucks per year on taxes. They make what I think are good points on their site, but I’ve no way of knowing if their solutions are obtainable or not. Reviving failed economies by Big Business is fraught with peril, especially without government oversite. Another miss, I’m afraid.

Gun Laws. You know how I am… Repealing the vast majority of our gun laws would do nothing but help this country. Coupled with the Libertarian views on crime (kind of Wiccan, they are - an’ it harm none, do what thou wilt), anyone using a firearm to harm another except in self defense would face severe financial repercussions as well as prison time. This will scare a lot of people, but I’ll chalk this up as a hit :smiley:

I could go on point by point, but if the Libertarians got control, and followed their own ideals, I’d say that the country would be better off in some ways and worse in others. There might be a sharp increase in violence, followed by an even sharper decrease. The economy could get better, but workers could be worse off until the Unions came back, at which point the system would readjust. (Libertarians have never called to outlaw organized labor, and would probably reduce the government restraints on unions)
No one party is perfect for the U.S. We have an elaborate system of checks and balances in place to temper the best and worst of those in power.

A true Libertarian State… Who knows? Maybe people aren’t as bad as I think and would help each other out. Seems that welfare and etc. came about because we want to help our fellows. I don’t think it’d work out as some authors seem to think (L. Neil Smith, for instance), but it wouldn’t be as bad as some others seem to believe.

And I’d probably be fired for screwing around this much at work…

10

It’s hard to take the LP seriously when they either make up their facts or just misinterpret them. Take their crime issues.

I’d like some verification of that data before I consider their argument seriously. Also, they ignore that most prisoners are state prisoners, not federal. Serious violent crimes are state offenses so you would not expect them to be represented in federal pens.

This is just feel good mush. In many cases in the current system, victims address the court. Their “plan” adds nothing.

Again, cites for these figures would help a lot.

11

[QUOTE=BobLibDem]
It’s hard to take the LP seriously when they either make up their facts or just misinterpret them. <snip>
This is just feel good mush.
[/QUOTE]
This is unlike any other party website how? I’d say “feel good mush” is a good description of most political speak, unless they are actively attacking something. Coming up with a coherent and workable statement is apparently hard enough for the two major parties sometimes, and the LP doesn’t have resources nor money to publish a point-by-point plan. It’s not like they’re suddenly going to find themselves in charge and they should be aware of that.
We are playing with a completely impossible hypothetical here, requiring the party to have a website that plays along is kind of unfair to them, innit?

I do have my doubts about the 60% figure. I wouldn’t be surprised to see that the number is technically correct, but highly misleading. Also wouldn’t be surprised to discover that it is just flat wrong.

Er, exactly which facts did they make up?

12

The borders would be opened by law, but just as quickly reclosed by men with guns.

13

re: Drug Incarceration Rates… According to Human Rights Watch:

I don’t know if that’s violent and non-violent or whatever. That’s probably where they got the 60% figure from (59% rounded up).

14

Given that someone makes a huge amount of cash from the state by locking up people in prison, and these comapnies would be funding libertarian election campaigns, I think there would be a huge incentive for more prisons, that would become closed factories, with extremely low labour costs.

Hell, they might even pay them more than the current wage rate for prisoners, still has to be cheaper than hiring your own workforce.

It would fit in with the law and order crowd as well, so expect to see far longer jail terms.

15

Driving cross-country would be a bitch, with a tollbooth every 100 yards or so - this is assuming that some farmer who’d discovered oil on his/her land decided he didn’t need the headache caused by tolling road users, and just shut the damn road down on his/her property. Expect big diversions on all major highways.

16

This is 'effing ridiculous. Read what mainstram Libertarains write and remember that we’re Libertarians, not anarchists!

The rule of law would remain firmly in place and reductions in the military would only be carried out on an incremental basis to preserve national security. It might be harder to build new roads, but no, the roads would not shut down. I believe that public domain is necessary for the construction of roads, I do no think that using it to build malls is an appropriate exercise of public domain.

If Libertarians actually did come to power, Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid would not be brought to a halt overnight, but be slowly privatized or given to the states.

All in all, a Libertarian America would look a whole lot like America right now, except for lower taxes and a lot of revision of the drug laws. I’m not a strict Libertarian in that I think any public-support program is immoral, I just think that we should recognize that the government is generally a pretty inefficient way to get things done and that any tax is like a bit of a wet towel on what the economy might otherwise be. So, I don’t think that Medicare or Medicaid or even wellfare have to end to get to a 95% Libertarian state, but we can’t lock people in prison for 20 years just for having a few ounces of coke on hand nor can we go around the world starting wars such as in Iraq.

17

[QUOTE=threemae]
It might be harder to build new roads, but no, the roads would not shut down. I believe that public domain is necessary for the construction of roads, I do no think that using it to build malls is an appropriate exercise of public domain.
[/QUOTE]
Genuine question: would Compulsory Purchase Orders for the common good be viable in your version of Libertaria?

18

It would very quickly descend into postapocalyptic chaos; smoking ruins with a few fat cats in glass bubbles. The darkest dystopias of SF imaginings would all come true.

19

The coffee was good. I’d been drinking Smith’s Bold Roast for the last 2 years, and it had never let me down. The same smooth taste, unchanging day after day. My first sip of the morning hit my stomach like a shell full of birdshot.

“Why the fuck did you buy Cattle Ranchers Association of Philadelphia approved meat?” I said to my wife.

“I could have sworn they were a reputable brand! Their name is so close to the Cattle Raising Association of Pittsburg that I didn’t notice the difference, and we’ve been eating Pittsburg meat for the last two years without any problem!,” she replied.

“Well, we have a fucking problem now, don’t we? My shit was tar black this morning, and I feel like there’s a fucking autistic weasel listening to Metalica in my God damn gut! There was something foul in that crap you bought!” said I.

She sighed, and responded: “I suppose I should make an appointment for you to see Dr. Smitherson then, shouldn’t I?”

“Lord no!,” I shouted. “Dr. Smitherson was bonded by the Association of Healthcare Professionals! I read in the Times yesterday that they’ve been admitting any Doctor who can walk across the border! Why, I heard they’ve been letting Mexican doctors set up shop under their brand without so much as a written exam! Carl went to see an AHP doc the other day and he was told to drink CAT BLOOD! For headaches!!!”

“Poor Carl. I can’t believe he’s dead already. I wish Monteverde Plumbing had bought scaffolding certified by the Society of American Scaffolding Manufacturers instead of the Association of American Scaffolding Manufacturers,” my wife lamented. She glanced out the window at the rendering plant nextdoor. They’d bought out the neighoring houses in the subdivision a few years ago, but their land needs stopped at our lot. It stunk, and occaisonally the fumes made us pass out, but at least we didn’t have any fucking big-government city planners telling people what to do with our land.

After a long pause, she replied, “Well how about Dr. Mercotan, then? I hear he’s been licensed by the Association of Global Physicians?”

I responded: “Well, I’ve heard they’re not too bad, although they are rather new, so I guess he’s worth a shot. Where is he?”

“Oh, he’s over in Fletcherville,” she said.

“Well, we better get going then. We’re going to have to take the Fluggerville Cooperative Highway from here to Appletree–which is OK because I just finished ordering tokens from their dial-in. But from Appletree to Fletcherville we’ll have to take the Greater Fletcherville Automobile Association Expressway, and I forgot the toll transponder for them at work, so we’ll have to stop at the booth,” I told her.

“Let’s get going then,” she said. “When I last gassed up I did so at a Valemark station. I read a report the other day that they’re using a different sized gallon then the other gas placed. It’s in the fine print on the payment kiosk when you agree to pump there. I’m not sure we’ll have enough gas, and the company that manufactured our car went out of business 3 months ago, and I haven’t been able to get a new guage…”

There’s probably a ton of errors on the above, but I don’t care enough to preview and correct them. Hoo-ray for “Post Quick Reply”!

20

Metacom, I’m sorry, but that is just beyond the pale…

It’s Pittsburgh, dammit!