I think there’s a difference between recognizing that not all choices are black and white and “feeling sorry for ourselves and blaming someone else for our troubles.” Some people have difficult choices to make in life, some less so. It’s a bit of a stretch to interpret “This is a messed up situation,” with “this is someone else’s fault!”
Again; what is “fair” and “just” and “right” are subjective. Justice is a concept that varies quite a bit depending on time and geography. It hardly seems just to dunk a woman underwater til her lungs burst because you’re having wet dreams about her, yet it was found a perfectly apt punishment not so very long ago.
Children would be born with cancer of birth defects. Kids would be born mentally deficient.
But god would never be cruel to innocent children would he?
Unloving, unfair, unjust. You’ve described what he’s not. Now, describe what he is. Would he create creatures he didn’t like? Probably not, except as tools to some other end. If we’re tools to some other end, then we’d probably be treated in accordance with that end, with no especial care or attention to fairness and justice towards us - but likely no particular effort to thwart such things, either. God just wouldn’t care about us, except as tools towards an end. Occasionally he might have a cruel whim and dump misfortune on people -a flood here, a volcano there, a killing spree here, a dictator there- but for the most part he’d be off doing what he’d rather be doing.
Yes, my toaster told me this morning, via telekinietically causing my cheerios to spell out “ooooooooo” in my cereal bowl.*
Come on. Do you really think I’m arguing the pro-theistic position here?
*This is a total lie. I don’t even have a toaster, or any cheerios for that matter. I do have a cereal bowl though.
Or he could be a dedicated gamer playing “the sims” with one family in southern LA, and everything else in the universe is automatically generated background that he cares little or nothing about. (Incidentally, that family’s life sucks.) Until somebody postulates more about this “un-” god, this scenario or your scenario or many others are all possible.
Dude. You never said you had one of those toasters.
I had no idea which side you were arguing. Just answering a point that, for some odd reason, always seems to always crop up during these discussions…
Why is that, anyway? Why do we automatically assume certain attributes for something of which we have no verifiable evidence? It makes my head hurt almost as much as the altruism argument.
I was actually calling into question those same assumptions, by pointing out that we were all trying to extrapolate behavior from only three properties, and negatively defined properties at that.
And we assume properties because we’re playing a “what if” game. Spelled out, it’s “If an entity existed that these properties: […], what other things would we expect to be true or to happen?” It’s no more nonsensical a topic than “What would you do if you had a million dollars”, really, and it’s an excellent method for trying to prove that the posited thing isn’t so, via proof by contradiction. Of course, with a definition composed merely of three "non"s, you can’t really get all that far.
I was offering a way out of feeling sorry for yourself and blaming others. Some don’t believe that’s possible while others get on with their life in a new and positive perspective.
Without God we would not be having a discussion, we would not exist.
Look at the Greek gods, multiply/divide by the amount of deities you’re talking about. Assuming by “unloving” we’re talking uncaring rather than outright hatred, I would imagine we would pretty much be left to live our lives, with whoever attracts their attention being fucked with (perhaps literally) unconcernedly with whatever interest concerns them at the time. Assuming we’re created by them or otherwise in the first place, anyway.
Oh, and i’m in the “no free will” camp, too. Note that by definition I cannot blame others, since with no free will there is no true fault on my or other’s behalf. In order to blame others, we require a system of free will (and individuality, of course).
Actually, absent free will you can still blame things. I blame the cold weather here for the ice on the roads, and the ice on the roads for my car’s poor traction, all the time. I blame gravity for drawing things toward the ground. Blame is nothing more than a recognition of causes direct and indirect.
Getting pissed off at the things at fault for various events is only worthwhile if you enjoy the experience of getting pissed off. Whether you’re dealing with something with free will or not, just act to correct its behavior as best you can and carry on with life.
How is **Skald the Rhymer’s ** response illegitimate? I think it is perfectly fair to point out, in response to a question like the OP, that the scripture of one of the world’s chief religions describes a God who is downright psychopathic.
According to you. There’s no reason to believe that we or the universe needs God. Either to be created, or to be maintained. Saying that we need God to exist is an empty assertion; fact free.
What choice did the two year old baby who was raped to death (after constant abuse) by her mother’s boyfriend make? Surely you must admit that’s a pretty sucky quality of life. What determined it in this case?
Specific acts attributed to God in the Bible are not relevant to the OP unless you’re talking to someone who believes the Bible should be taken literally. I don’t.
Even though justice and love can be subjective we still seek a fuller understanding and a truer living of those ideals. The quest for justice us reflected in civil rights and human rights. The quest for love reflected in the desire to reach out to those in need. We obviously haven’t perfected it, but we are still trying. We aren’t stagnant.
I’d say we at least have the illusion of free will and we must choose. If I’m at the crossroads god may know which way I’ll turn but I don’t so I have to choose and see what lies ahead. Yes, good and bad are also subjective but as before, we still keep trying to understand more. Wouldn’t you say seeking justice is seeking good rather than bad? Same with love right?
The basic lesson of many religions is the idea that we as a race , are all connected , and ultimately we need to see and live that connection. Do unto others and all that.
