[QUOTE=begbert2]
Actually, absent free will you can still blame things. I blame the cold weather here for the ice on the roads, and the ice on the roads for my car’s poor traction, all the time. I blame gravity for drawing things toward the ground. Blame is nothing more than a recognition of causes direct and indirect.
[/QUOTE]
A semantic difference, I think. I would certainly say those things are at fault for those various problems. But blame for me requires a mind behind it. It’s the difference between “this is responsible for that” and “this is deliberately responsible for that”.
[QUOTE=lekatt]
I was offering a way out of feeling sorry for yourself and blaming others. Some don’t believe that’s possible while others get on with their life in a new and positive perspective.
Without God we would not be having a discussion, we would not exist.
[/QUOTE]
I assure you, I neither feel sorry for myself not blame others for anything. I’m having a pretty good life, thank you very much, no thanks to god but rather thanks to my genes and my parents.
As for why I exist, it was purely random chance that the right sperm got there at the right time. Thousands of other me’s had the same chance of existing. Of course the non-existent god had nothing to do with evolution or cosmology.
[QUOTE=begbert2]
Or he could be a dedicated gamer playing “the sims” with one family in southern LA, and everything else in the universe is automatically generated background that he cares little or nothing about. (Incidentally, that family’s life sucks.)
[/QUOTE]
I find this analogy quite fitting, having watched my six year old playing Sims. Poor little sim-people being forced to ride roller-coasters over and over until they collapse from exhaustion and expire in embarrassing puddles, or discovering that their backyard has mysteriously become one giant swimming pool… with slides in but no ladders out, or the entire yard is covered in lawn furniture and the toilet has vanished. 
[QUOTE=Sophistry and Illusion]
I’d have to say ‘ditto’ to those who say things would be pretty much as they are now. Millions of people who are no worse than anyone else suffering horrible illnesses and deaths while vastly worse people prosper; a world populated by people who seem especially designed for evil and malevolence, etc., etc.
[/QUOTE]
I have to agree, too. But, for different reasons than others seem to be implying.
You all realize, don’t you, that the bible says that Satan is the ruler of this world?
just a couple corroborating references: 2 Cor 4:4 Luke 4:6 John 18:36
Maybe an evil god would give people hope and joy just to take it away again, or gives just enough people permanent hope and/or joy to give others the false hope that they could achieve it also. If the people totally gave up, they wouldn’t bother to do anything, and the evil god wouldn’t have any toys to play with(and break for no reason).
[QUOTE=ch4rl3s]
I have to agree, too. But, for different reasons than others seem to be implying.
You all realize, don’t you, that the bible says that Satan is the ruler of this world?
just a couple corroborating references: 2 Cor 4:4 Luke 4:6 John 18:36
[/QUOTE]
If the Debbil has so much power, maybe we should be praying to him?
We gotta follow the chain of command and all.
[QUOTE=monstro]
If the Debbil has so much power, maybe we should be praying to him?
[/QUOTE]
That reminds me of this :
[QUOTE=Bill Hicks ]
A guy says, “I hate Jews,” and I said, “Why?” He goes, “Because they killed my God.” They believe that. If I believed that the Jews killed my God, I’d worship the Jews, 'cause shit, there’s some badasses on that team, man.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Czarcasm]
Maybe an evil god would give people hope and joy just to take it away again, or gives just enough people permanent hope and/or joy to give others the false hope that they could achieve it also. If the people totally gave up, they wouldn’t bother to do anything, and the evil god wouldn’t have any toys to play with(and break for no reason).
[/QUOTE]
I recall a short story where an evil God wanted to be hated, and the point of all the love-and-peace-and-Paradise-for-the-faithful rhetoric was specifically so that his mortal victims would hate him all the more when they found out that everyone suffers after death. Regardless of behavior or belief.
[QUOTE=Voyager]
I assure you, I neither feel sorry for myself not blame others for anything. I’m having a pretty good life, thank you very much, no thanks to god but rather thanks to my genes and my parents.
As for why I exist, it was purely random chance that the right sperm got there at the right time. Thousands of other me’s had the same chance of existing. Of course the non-existent god had nothing to do with evolution or cosmology.
[/QUOTE]
I am glad you are satisfied with your life, and not feeling sorry for yourself. I wish everyone could say that, what a better world it would be.
However, nothing happens by random chance in this dimension or the spiritual dimension or any other dimension. We live in a cause and effect universe. I believe science has proven and taken a position to this cause. Otherwise science would be useless, as well as all the rest of mankind’s belief systems. The body you inhabit is not the real you, you were not created at birth. I know this means nothing to you now, but you are young. The older one gets the more they venture out of their comfort zones to learn about the world outside of the closed belief systems of their youth.
Lekatt, either answer my question or stop making those nonsensical claims, please.
[QUOTE=Czarcasm]
Maybe an evil god would give people hope and joy just to take it away again, or gives just enough people permanent hope and/or joy to give others the false hope that they could achieve it also. If the people totally gave up, they wouldn’t bother to do anything, and the evil god wouldn’t have any toys to play with(and break for no reason).
[/QUOTE]
Would an unjust god allow us to become more just over the generations?
[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
Would an unjust god allow us to become more just over the generations?
[/QUOTE]
Which begs the question-Are we “more just”? And if we were, would that not give us more hope for an unjust god to dash once we die? Being pushed down a flight of stairs might hurt. Being pushed off the top of the Sears Tower, on the other hand, can be a major pain.
[QUOTE=ch4rl3s]
I have to agree, too. But, for different reasons than others seem to be implying.
You all realize, don’t you, that the bible says that Satan is the ruler of this world?
just a couple corroborating references: 2 Cor 4:4 Luke 4:6 John 18:36
[/QUOTE]
Well, to turn things back around, what kind of god would allow the embodiment of evil to rule over God’s creation? Answer: an unjust and uncaring one.
[QUOTE=Sophistry and Illusion]
Well, to turn things back around, what kind of god would allow the embodiment of evil to rule over God’s creation? Answer: an unjust and uncaring one.
[/QUOTE]
Maybe life is one big Family Circus:
“All right. Who flooded the Earth and caused all those deaths?”
“Not Me!”
[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
Would an unjust god allow us to become more just over the generations?
[/QUOTE]
Sure. He might find it more satisfying to betray and torment nicer people. You assume that he regards being unjust as some sort of cause, and not just as entertainment.
[QUOTE=Czarcasm]
Which begs the question-Are we “more just”? And if we were, would that not give us more hope for an unjust god to dash once we die? Being pushed down a flight of stairs might hurt. Being pushed off the top of the Sears Tower, on the other hand, can be a major pain.
[/QUOTE]
Well no, falling from there we probably experience no pain.
I’d say we are more just per capita than a few generations ago.
Are there more or less societies that embrace slavery, women’s rights, economic justice for the poor?
I’m assuming that the OP is about how different or not an unjust god would appear in relationship to life on earth, not speculation about the next life.
I think an evil god would spread the word about a huge reward after death, an eternity of bliss, if some arbitrary rules were followed. Arbitrary enough to affect their lives, but not enough to drive too many people away. And horrible punishment for those who don’t follow the rules, of course. All so that he can see the look on their faces when they realize that they had been misled and deluded all along. He would lovethe Puritans.
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]
Lekatt, either answer my question or stop making those nonsensical claims, please.
[/QUOTE]
You must be new around here.
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
Sure. He might find it more satisfying to betray and torment nicer people. You assume that he regards being unjust as some sort of cause, and not just as entertainment.
[/QUOTE]
No I’m guessing that a loving god would move us to become more loving even if it took generation upon generation to move forward, while an unjust god while occasionally allowing a glimmer of hope for entertainments sake, would be going against his very nature to allow slow continued progress which results in more people living better lives.
Far more frightening than an abstract unjust god would be one that behaved with the world and people more or less as my two year old does with his toys - sometimes carefully stacking them up, sometimes gleefully kicking them around, sometimes taking them apart to see how they work or throwing them in the potty, occasionally just contemplatively chewing on them … uttery without malice, but utterly without any notion of consequences either. 
[QUOTE=lekatt]
I am glad you are satisfied with your life, and not feeling sorry for yourself. I wish everyone could say that, what a better world it would be.
However, nothing happens by random chance in this dimension or the spiritual dimension or any other dimension. We live in a cause and effect universe. I believe science has proven and taken a position to this cause. Otherwise science would be useless, as well as all the rest of mankind’s belief systems. The body you inhabit is not the real you, you were not created at birth. I know this means nothing to you now, but you are young. The older one gets the more they venture out of their comfort zones to learn about the world outside of the closed belief systems of their youth.
[/QUOTE]
I wish I were young. I’m not. I’m just, as Tom Lehrer said, engaged in a research program of extending adolescence beyond all known limits.
And God does play dice. At the very deepest quantum level all things are probabilistic. Now statistically it looks cause and effectish at the macro level, I’ll grant you. But there is also chaos. We might be able to figure out why and how something happened in the past, but we never will be able to predict what will happen in the future.
I was created at birth, well conception in a way. My mind is a function of my genes. I share lots of mental characteristics with my parents, and my kids share a lot with me. Now how exactly are the heritable parts of intelligence passed to some kind of soul pre-existing conception? If you were correct, each of us would be unrelated mentally to our parents, even if we are physically similar.
The scientific term for your hypothesis is bullshit.
[QUOTE=Voyager]
I wish I were young. I’m not. I’m just, as Tom Lehrer said, engaged in a research program of extending adolescence beyond all known limits.
And God does play dice. At the very deepest quantum level all things are probabilistic. Now statistically it looks cause and effectish at the macro level, I’ll grant you. But there is also chaos. We might be able to figure out why and how something happened in the past, but we never will be able to predict what will happen in the future.
I was created at birth, well conception in a way. My mind is a function of my genes. I share lots of mental characteristics with my parents, and my kids share a lot with me. Now how exactly are the heritable parts of intelligence passed to some kind of soul pre-existing conception? If you were correct, each of us would be unrelated mentally to our parents, even if we are physically similar.
The scientific term for your hypothesis is bullshit.
[/QUOTE]
Well, we will believe what you want to, all of us.
What you seem to be saying is there is chaos at the micro level that produces order at the macro level. Never known that to be logical before. More likely we can’t understand the micro level as well as we can the macro, and it only appears that way. As for being unrelated mentally you are correct. Not necessary to do a lot of research to find evidence either. Just go ask the mother of identical twins or other multiples. These babies have only their mother in common when it comes to attitudes, preferences, behaviour, etc.