What would be the Achilles heel of religion?

I would say that your entire premise here is incorrect. I view the pursuit of science and religion as largely orthogonal. Science is in search of how, where religion, and similar philosophies, are in search of why. I think people who look to religion to explain the natural processes of how we got here, evolution, and all that are looking in the wrong place. Similarly, I think people who look to science to understand their purpose in life and what they should do with it and how they should treat eachother as looking in the wrong place.

There is some overlap, but I distinctly believe that science can never say anything meaningful about the existence or non-existence of God, and that’s sort of the point. If we liken God to the director of a film, everything in that film is exactly as it is because of the work of the director. We don’t see the editting and changes and the decisions that were made. Sure, we can see outtakes and bloopers, but those are outside the context of the film. As such, any interaction God has with nature inherently appears as part of nature, and is utterly indistinguishable from a perspective internal to the context of nature.

The point is, the purpose of religion isn’t to create a falsifiable theory and then try to verify it. In fact, in my experience, it’s the exact opposite process, an experiential process.

I have no qualms with the idea that there’s other life out there or that God created them too. I don’t believe that we’re necessarily the only life or that we’re necessarily the most important. The thing is, we have no idea how common life is in the universe because we only have a single data point. It could be possible that there’s billions or trillions of civilizations out there, and yet contact with them is all but impossible. Or it could be that there’s millions or billions even within our own galaxy and we just haven’t reached a threshold of technology where we can meaningfully communicate with them.

However, if there’s any other life, it really doesn’t have any bearing on us in the foreseeable future. Even if we discovered intelligent life tomorrow, I don’t see how it inherently violates any of my beliefs about God, barring some unforeseeable information. Then again, any unforeseeable information could cause all kinds of wild and unpredictable results.

And I would argue that this view of how prayer works results from a deep misunderstanding of its purpose. Prayer isn’t about asking God for things you want or asking him to prevent things you don’t want. It’s about conversation and communing with God. In fact, most of my prayer is very seldom of the type where I put my hands together and bow my head. Instead, I think it’s more of a constant type of contact, and often through meditation. Most of all, it definitely is not about getting what you want.

Instead, prayer is about process, growth, and learning. By the definitions of God we seem to be running under here, inherently, his plan is perfect, or at least superior to my wishes, and any expectation of altering his plan to my whims contradicts that. Instead, I prayer that he helps me understand why these things happen that happen and to learn and grow from the experiences so that I can best fulfill my role in that plan.

For an analogy, the type of prayer you seem to be thinking about would be like a kid calling up their parent every time something goes wrong and asking for money to fix it. What will that child ever learn about self-reliance, or life in general, if every time something goes wrong, they give them what they want? Instead, a child should approach their parent looking for advice and concern on how to deal with it and what they can do to keep those bad things from happening or whatever. You know, the whole “teach a man to fish” thing.

In short, I think viewing God as an invisible man in the sky who grants wishes is something that people should have grown out of when they were a young child. The idea that it doesn’t make sense from an adult perspective doesn’t invalidate the existence of God, only that childish view of him.

And this is just silly. You’re dealing with infinities and cycles here. You inherently get nonsense when you compare these kinds of values in our understandings of mathematics. Asking these sorts of questions is like kids arguing and throwing “plus infinity” into it. Which weighs more, infinity pounds or infinity kilograms? Its a nonsense question.

I tend to view the concept of God’s “infiniteness” to our existence as simply jumping up a level of dimensionality. Imagine we have a solid of finite size. How many 2D slices can we take of it? There’s an infinite number of 2D slices, and there’s no meaningful way to describe the 3D shape except through projections. But if anyone has ever seen a 4D hypercube projection, can you really meaningfully understand what a 4th spacial dimension even means?

As such, I try to intuitively accept that however he exists, I can best understand it as him existing in some higher dimensionality, which also explains much of our experiential views of him, like being omnipresent and omniscient.

I question your implication that the Bible used to be taken completely literally but has, over time, been taken steadily less literally—that Biblical literalism is a monotonically decreasing phenomenon. Rather, the Bible is a collection of writings, of various genres, and it’s important to understand how the original authors and audiences of those writings meant them to be understood.

I’m not sure it makes sense to say “religion is this” or “religion does that,” as though “religion” as such were a single entity that makes claims or does things.

I’m not sure how you could know they were the bones of Jesus. But if you could, why would that necessarily disprove the Resurrection, rather than the Ascension?

This is a good point. Bibilcal literalism is, in fact, a fairly recent historical development.

We could always call the aliens a bunch of unbelievers and kill them :smiley:

Yes sure, but can you tell me any way of distinguishing the “adult” sense of a personal god - if there is one, and I’m assuming you think there is - from a deist or non-existing god?

I agree. Better to pick a specific idea, event, or behavior and address it.

For example:
What specific method(s) do we use to determine the nature of God?
What do we look at to determine the specific nature of God?
Who specifically formulates the idea of the nature of God?

I think that the weakness in religion is the vagueness and ambiguity of the words “deity”, “god”, and, especially “God”.

Because Jesus’ commandments don’t make sense to anything but an intelligent life form. How is a mushroom supposed to love its fellow mushroom?

I assume that, if I encountered an intelligent alien, my faith would require me to treat HIm with the same generosity and benevolence I owe to my fellow human beings.

Meeting aliens would not, in and of itself, prove or disprove ANYTHING about God, any more than the discovery of human on the previously unknown continent of South America did 500+ years ago.

I agree. But whatever the cause may be, you won’t get a testable answer to any of those questions.

I generally agree with your stated concepts of morality, but as far as I can see, Jesus never made these kinds of claims. Which is fine for my explanation of Christian religion, but not for the interpretation that claims that Jesus was literally the cause and designer of the universe.

Anyway, as far as I can see, gorillas are plenty intelligent. Are you claiming that intelligence/empathy is, on earth, a specifically human trait, or are you claiming that humans are special by virtue of being declared that way by some creator, or do you have another explanation?

Of course it would. There are multitudes of creation/god stories that would be instantly disproved by meeting intelligent aliens. Just like the flood story has been disproved.

Testable? :confused:
How is that relevant?
And what do you mean by “the cause”? I didn’t ask about the cause.

I’m just looking for answers to these questions:
[ul]
[li]What specific method(s) do we use to determine the nature of God?[/li][li]What do we look at to determine the specific nature of God?[/li][li]Who specifically formulates the idea of the nature of God?[/li][/ul]

For which definition of “God”?

I think the article you cited makes an interesting point about the beliefs of scientists. To me it shows that scientist are humans like the rest of. There are very few humans who do not have moral dilemmas. You would be hard pressed to find anyone, even a staunch atheist like myself, who does not yearn for something greater than themselves which “knows better”. That sense of a being or power with a moral compass is a very attractive and comforting feeling. I am sure that the spirituality that people feel (specifically the scientist mentioned in the article) which they say comes from a religious point of view actually comes from themselves.

I am a strong believer that morality is inherent to humans just like walking and talking. Although just like walking and talking it needs to be nurtured, which is why there are people who act in morally questionable ways. Religion, or the belief of a higher being, is not necessary to be moral. Those scientist who attend a regular service or who are not actively against religion simply want to put a reason to why they behave the way they do. Besides it is fun to be part of a community regardless of what they believe, as long as that community accepts you for who you are and does not actively hinder your happiness.

Someone else mentioned in this thread that religion actively hinders scientific works. That is true to a point. The fact is that people like scientist are more than capable of separating their beliefs with experimentation. That is what being a scientist is all about. You need to check your beliefs at the door when doing scientific work, whether the belief is a supernatural being or how you want the experiment you are working on to turn out. As for the scientist who turned down the grant money from the Department of Defense on moral grounds, if she had taken it she could have done research or scientific work that would have helped mankind. In that case her personal morals hindered scientific work. Of course its a double edged sword.

I’m sorry, I was assuming those were rhetorical questions.

If you didn’t intent them to be, then the answer to all of those is “what/whoever the believer or priest likes (you) to believe”.

ETA: And of course, if none of these are testable (though they all are), anybody can be right and there’d be no way to tell.

In other words, far less than the general population. If anything you are proving my point.

You are also ignoring the fact that I didn’t say that scientists are hostile to religion; I said that science is. And that religion is hostile to science; the fact that these scientists are religious tends to make them worse at their jobs. They have to avoid questions and disciplines that touch on their religion, otherwise the fundamental falsehood and illogic of their religion will be rubbed in their faces. Again; you aren’t likely to find a theist biologist.

And she may have used the words “elite scientists”, but that’s nonsense; atheism increases the higher up you go the ladder of scientific research.

I’m sure you are correct about this.

You might also be interested in Blish’s A Case of Conscience which explores this issue from not so much a Christian perspective and which is a lot better written than the Lewis books, especially the final one.

Well, religion without reference to the divine is a social club in drag disguise. Not that I have anything against Buddhism. Those religions with claims about God must at some point claim access to God.

I was clearly assuming that the bones of Jesus could be proven to be his, since I don’t expect any such thing to be found. And you’re right, I should have said Ascension, this Jewish kid is fuzzy about the details of a religion I thought was nuts even when I believed in God.

The same way we find out things about the nature of black holes - we look at their impact on the universe. We look at those who claim to have been inspired by God to describe his nature, and we look at supposed physical manifestations of God. If the Exodus had happened, and you trudged through the parted Red Sea, you wouldn’t have to be asking these questions, would you?
We test the statements of those who claim to know stuff about god through looking at other claims about the natural world. If someone says that God told him that we must jump through a specific hoop, and that he flooded the world 5,000 years ago, finding that the world wasn’t flooded kind of makes us not think too highly of the idea that the command really came from God. If God hasn’t talked to anyone, then we have no business even discussing him.

Philosophy also discusses the why question. The difference between religion and philosophy is that philosophy considers all questions open, with no final and perfect answer, while religion claims that some deity or other has provided us with the answers and if you buy into them you just have to worry about the details of mapping your life into what is right under those constraints. Philosophy and ethics are important adjuncts to science; religion just provided an unjustified sense of having the answers.

This argument is always puzzling to me. Aliens would simply be another life form, just like dogs and fish and birds, only smarter. Why couldn’t God have created them too?

For me it would be the make-it-up-as-you-go criteria.

When I was young and started questioning scriptures, I never got a clear answer on how to interpret what I’m reading. I got many different answers from laypeople and church officials. In essence, I got the answer I wanted to hear.

I would ask about the destruction of Jericho-- the murder of men, women and children, an order directly from god. Or I would ask about why slavery is still included. I would ask about the rejected books from the bible. I would ask about Jesus’ temper in the temple and the fig tree. All of these questions, as different as they are, always got a similar answer: “The bible was written in ancient days. This is what people were used to at the time.” Or, “The lord works in mysterious ways.” Or even, “Jesus, since he was human, had human fallacies just like we do.”

Bullshit.

The other major Achilles heel might be the huge, huge reward for doing almost nothing. Accept Jesus into your heart, follow the commandments and you get something for free-- eternal happiness. It’s like saying if you pass me the sugar at the dinner table, I’ll give you a million bucks.

More bullshit.

These ideas of a godly creator or eternal happiness is certainly not new to christianity or any other religion. It’s basically stolen material from many different sources.

I think possibly another AH is how religion limits the mind and understanding of things in society. Biblegod asked us to ignore the tree of knowledge. I for one, am glad I didn’t listen. If I kept my nose in the bible, I wouldn’t be able to even type on the SDMB right now. :wink: