Mr. Visible, what would it take to GIVE UP YOUR RELIGION, or give up on religion ALTOGETHER? I’ve seen many people change faiths, but I think there are fewer that give it up altogether. I’d like to hear from both camps. What does it feel like when you realize that your belief system is no longer believable? Do you feel stupid? Betrayed? Disillusioned?
I wonder: if faith is based so much on personal experience, would it challenge people’s faith much if it could be shown HOW their particular experiences could be easily reproduced? And showing how it can happen naturally?
That is, if after a particularly moving session of god experience, someone popped out from behind the bed with a device that could create those feelings, would this challenge anyone’s faith? How about if they showed you how it works, both mechanically and biologically?
An interesting note here: In all the threads of the “what would it take to make you believe” type that I’ve seen, most non-believers have given concrete examples, and almost none have said “nothing would ever make me believe”.
But in this thread, I’m noticing almost all theists so far have either said “nothing would convince me”, or avoided the question altogether.
Make of this what you will.
I noticed the same thing. What would dash your faith in god? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?
If she is willing to share, the better question might be "What kind of experiences test your faith the most?"
Fair enough.
Sometimes I wonder what God’s reasoning is when evil rotten nasty people prosper while some of His servants suffer (think missionaries who go off to other countries only to be martyred).
I also wonder what’s up with little girls like Danielle Van Dam getting kidnapped and murdered.
Why can’t God just zap all the bad people in the world, ya know?
I think everything happens for a reason (note that I did not say that everything that happens is in God’s will), and while God is free to tell me the reasons behind certain things, chances are He won’t. And He doesn’t have to, any more than I have to explain to my daughter my reasoning behind certain rules I will set down for her when the time comes.
It is not wrong to question and to ask why, but I don’t want to be one of God’s kids that walks around asking “WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY” constantly like a 2 year old. Does he have to tell me everything in order for me to trust Him? No.
I’d like to respectfully disagree with that remark. I think you’re making the same mistake that many skeptics do – confusing evidence with proof.
My faith RESTS on evidence. That is, I believe there’s enough evidence for the Christian faith to make me accept its tenets. It is not, however, absolutely proven – and that’s where faith comes in. Faith allows one to believe in that which is not proven.
I have faith in my more trustworthy co-workers. I know that they will do their best to come through for me, because there is sufficient evidence that they will. I can not prove that they will though, and that is where faith comes in.
In fact, the New Testament writers constantly appealed to evidence, without claiming to provide proof. Matthew appealed to the evidence of fulfilled prophecy. Paul appealed to those who knew of his old lifestyle, and how he had reformed. Heck, in the story of Doubting Thomas, Jesus presented tactile evidence of his resurrection. At no point did any of these people say “How dare you ask for evidence! Just believe! Just have faith!” No, that’s not what genuine faith is about.
So, in other words: anything that could happen is consistent with God’s existence? Because no matter what it is, it could simply be explained by noting that we don’t know God’s plans?
I have a close friend who went to seminary. He and his wife have been Christians all their lives. Therefore, I was astonished to discover when I visited them last, that they had stopped going to church entirely. This was just at the point he was about to be named as one of the church directors. Naturally, I asked why.
Their reasoning seemed to revolve around three things:
-
They didn’t see situations where prayer helped.
-
They were annoyed with the behavior of other Christians in the church.
-
My friend had constructed an argument based on a single passage from the New Testament, that if considered in a particular way, suggested that people don’t have to be Christians to follow God. I.e., that the Bible is as valid as “The Book of the Dead” and Scientology.
Intellectually, I was fascinated by the turnabout. What seemed to be the underlying cause of the change was a disappointment that being a Christian hadn’t made them wealthy/wise/well-liked/healthy/respected as they had anticipated was their due.
Since my religious beliefs are not centered on the same expectations I guess my biggest surprise was that anyone would allow social situations to affect their central faith.
From Partly_Warmer
My suspicion is that this is a more common reason than despair at global suffering or receving Job-like suffering personally.
A big benefit and support of belief is a close-knit community. What if they found out something about you that they didn’t like? What if you suddenly found it to be a close-knit community that looked down on you?
Without that support mechanism, would you find your faith suffering? Moving away from God due to some annoying worshippers of hers might sound like “babies and bathwater”, but it is also human.
(And, yes, it isn’t Christian for them to judge you, but it is also quite human.)
OK, here’s one:
What if the Invisible Pink Unicorn (bless Her Holy Hooves) were to appear out of nowhere, rap you on the head with Her Horn, and say, “Hey! Dimbulb! There ain’t no god! Give it up!”
Would you?
Esprix
Or, to take Esprix’s hypo a bit further…
Alien ship lands and the Aliens have the following to say…
“What? You bought into that stuff? We are soooo sorry. That was just Bob here playing a joke on you guys. Bob, come on out here and apologize”
“I’m sorry. Can I make it up to you by teaching you how to walk on water or turn water into wine for you? How about raising the dead? Would you like that?”
“How about we give you some holograms showing what really happened two thousand years ago. Or maybe we all time just travel back then ourselves. Yeah, we will show you what happened first hand. You should really hear Bob when he was on that Mountain giving that sermon - he was laughing for weeks.”
Would that make one of the devout Christians doubt your beliefs? Is there any hypothetical evidence would be sufficient to convince you that the Bible got it wrong? What about the same story without the time travel? What if they didn’t have the holograms? What if they could turn water into wine and walk on water, but not raise the dead?
I’m not a believer, but I used to be. I didn’t just go sit in the pews on Sunday; I always took it pretty seriously. I read and studied the Bible. It was always in the back of my mind, even as a child, that this whole thing could be just an elaborate story that has been built up and grown over the years. Oh, it’s true, I told myself–but it’s conceivable that it’s just made up. Not necessarily a hoax, with someone behind it; just a story that got misinterpreted and handed down, and re-misinterpreted and handed down again, and so on.
Then I started to be more and more uncomfortable with some of the contradictions in the Bible. Is it literally true, as I was told? Not possible. Is it symbolically true? To a degree, maybe; but how to decode the symbols? I grew more and more uncomfortable with conflicting doctrine between various Christian groups. I looked into other religions, to compare. Mostly Buddhism, but all the other big ones, and a few of the more obscure ones. I noticed that they had some features that I liked, but also some that I thought were kind of silly. Then I looked back at Christianity, and realized that none of those other religions were any sillier than the one I had grown up in.
For years, I told myself that it’s the same message, just delivered to different groups in a different metaphor. All equally valid, just different. No way God could just condemn to hell all the Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, etc. Plenty of Christians assured me that he could, but I couldn’t swallow that.
I studied some science–not much, but enough to find that as time goes on, more and more “supernatural” events that I learned about in church could be explained scientifically. No problem, I thought–God set the whole science thing in motion. I could reconcile God and evolution.
I studied some history. I learned about how the development of the church was so enormously political, about how people with power influenced the church to serve their own ends. I realized that modern Christianity has only the vaguest resemblance to anything Jesus invisioned. The more I studied (undergrad minor in history, plus lots of personal study), the more I saw religion as an excellent way of controlling people, used by the scrupulous and the unscrupulous alike.
I studied some cultural anthropology–not much, but enough to think about the role that religion plays in human society, and about the possible origins of it, and about who might be served by its propagation.
I studied some philosophy, focusing mostly on deontology (the study of morality, basically) and the nature of belief. The more I studied, the more I realized that belief is not something we choose. For most people, religious belief is accepted from childhood and never really examined. In most other arenas, people believe things or not based on evidence, but in religion, it seems that evidence is not required. Scripture does give some evidence, but what’s the evidence to support the validity of that evidence? Pretty thin. I realized, as mentioned before, that the reasons not to believe in Santa Claus applied almost perfectly to God as well.
So I discovered that I no longer believed. I didn’t choose to stop believing; my belief disappeared spontaneously as I learned to think critically. I also discovered that for the first time in my life, I was happy. I had peace of mind. I was no longer confused and paranoid.
I did feel a little betrayed and disillusioned, but not stupid. For the first time in my life, I felt I wasn’t stupid. It felt good. I’ll admit that there were certain things I missed. I like some church music, for example. But you know what? I can still listen to it. Socially, church was a big part of my early life, and that left a little hole. I soon found that there were other, better things to fill that hole with.
I apologize if this lengthy post is not what the OP asked for. It just seems that many of the believers here are declaring their minds closed, so I thought it might be useful to hear from a former believer whose mind is open.
I stand with WV_Woman on this. There were a lot of suggestions made so far in this thread that may have provided some personal doubt for others, but I honestly cannot conjure up any scenario that would cause me personal doubt about His existence.
I am one of those “forty-something” year olds that can look back on their life and know that they have experienced much (which has covered areas you question), certainly enough to test but also more than enough to affirm His existance.
Every “test” thrown my way was never without His presence with me which I felt and knew was there. There have been times when He has even forewarned me of what would pass.
In answer to your last question, what can test one’s faith the most is your (grand) child being diagnosed with brain cancer; a very rare type which no little ones like him have ever survived. We were blessed to have had Dawson an additional year and ten days following his diagnosis. Never once, however, did I doubt God’s existence. His touch in our lives was often during this time and continues still 20 mos following Dawson’s crossing over. In fact, within the past two weeks our family has learned that two of our daughters are expecting a child. One child is due within days of my dad’s birthday (he crossed over 11 weeks after Dawson) and the other child is due on Dawson’s birthday. (Note to Apos: No, both daughters were not trying to become pregnant and no they did not schedule their ovulation. 
)
Based on that? Nope. Even Homer could claim that. 
—I honestly cannot conjure up any scenario that would cause me personal doubt about His existence.—
So, as I noted before: absolutely anything is consistent with god’s existence?
In that case, what can possibly be meant by “god exists”?
MrO:
Unlike you, I was not brought in a Christian household. My dad left the Catholic Church when he was 21 (despite nearly becoming a priest) and my mom never sets foot in a church except for weddings and funerals and does not believe in Christ. In fact, the household I grew up in looked down on Christians, but we allowed to choose a church to attend so us children would blend easier with society.
Not exactly furtile ground for “christian brainwashing”. We were encouraged to examine and explore spiritual matters and determine for ourselves what the truth may be. Even against the odds, I have always known Him. I still have a memory from when I was two-and-a-half years old, looking up at the sky towards God and complaining that everything was so big and I was so small. I felt His presence with me then and still do.
I agree with you about organized religion and I still apply the examine and explore to the bible (etc.), parts of which need to be understood in the context in which they were written.
My mind remains open, but that does not mean I will abandon what I believe to be true.
Apos:
Just saw your note while previewing this post. What appears consistent is that I don’t understand your question (again). Could you elaborate?
MrO:
Unlike you, I was not brought in a Christian household. My dad left the Catholic Church when he was 21 (despite nearly becoming a priest) and my mom never sets foot in a church except for weddings and funerals and does not believe in Christ. In fact, the household I grew up in looked down on Christians, but we allowed to choose a church to attend so us children would blend easier with society.
Not exactly furtile ground for “christian brainwashing”. We were encouraged to examine and explore spiritual matters and determine for ourselves what the truth may be. Even against the odds, I have always known Him. I still have a memory from when I was two-and-a-half years old, looking up at the sky towards God and complaining that everything was so big and I was so small. I felt His presence with me then and still do.
I agree with you about organized religion and I still apply the examine and explore to the bible (etc.), parts of which need to be understood in the context in which they were written.
My mind remains open, but that does not mean I will abandon what I believe to be true.
Apos:
Just saw your note while previewing this post. What appears consistent is that I don’t understand your question (again). Could you elaborate?
MrO said, “I did feel a little betrayed and disillusioned, but not stupid. For the first time in my life, I felt I wasn’t stupid. It felt good.”
Such is the way of things. I had nearly the opposite experience. When I converted from not believing, after years of reading and philosophy classes, I felt a burden of false arguments and denials I’d carried suddenly lifted. Things I’d worried about endlessly became understandable. I wasn’t afraid that someone’s position would threaten my beliefs – I was suddenly willing to listen to any argument. For the first time, I wasn’t protecting my religious beliefs.
You just have to open your eyes, and it’s right there. So strange.
EchoKitty, getting back to the OP, there isn’t any logical thing that would convince a believer at all. Converting is a spiritual matter, not an emotional or intellectual one. Losing faith is also a spiritual process.
Those who can be unconverted by argument alone never had full insight. Not being entirely sure whether your conversion is based on faith, or on habit and social convenience is one of the great fears religious people secretly have. Many people want to be converted so badly, they convince themselves they have been, before they’ve actually come to a solid, complete spiritual insight. It’s a well-meaning form of self-deception, but eventually it comes undone. For those people, “proofs” that they were wrong rest with the unresolved issues they had while looking for faith, that they’ve suppressed.
Arguing with a religious person may help address unresolved issues they still have, that keep them from a complete spiritual decision. For them, your very question is a help.
I have to say my experience almost completely parallels MrO’s.
Everyone here should be thankful. I wrote a very long post about how I grew up religious and gradually gave up bits and peices until nothing remained. The board ate it. You have been saved from reading another of my incoherent, tedious rambling diatribes. Maybe there is a God after all?
—Just saw your note while previewing this post. What appears consistent is that I don’t understand your question (again). Could you elaborate?—
That is: no matter what happens, no matter what state of the world exists, it is still easy to rationalize that it is just all part of a mysterious god’s will. A feeling of prescence is rather simple to convince oneself of feeling, seeing as it onyl needs to mirror ones own feeling of existence.
That makes the hypothesis sort of worthless really: any hypothesis that makes no difference could equally be proferred, and equally defendable.
So what? Unfalsifiable hypothesises are not just boring: they’re meaningless. If god’s existence makes no difference to any state of the world, what sort of existence could it possibly be?