What would it take for a political revolution in the US?

There have been some ongoing discussions about this election leading to possible revolution. Either from the Trump supporters on his loss, citing election fraud et al, or else from Democrats if Harris loses and Trump begins instituting a fascist state. I think some perspective about a revolution and what it would take is in order.

First, let me start with some terms. As I see it, there are four different categories that can be discussed. The terms I use may not be how they are used in most circumstances, but I need labels, so I picked these.

  1. Protests: This category is meant to apply to widespread non-violent actions taken to obstruct the government actions and register protest with the administration. I’m not saying that Protests would remain non-violent. Any widespread protests driven by an angry response are bound to lead to some people taking more aggressive means like throwing projectiles or arming themselves with clubs to resist authority. There is also, regrettably, a certain faction of people that see protests and see civil unrest and decide to take selfish action to get something for themselves, i.e. looting. This seems unavoidable. I still consider these “peaceful” means to contrast with an armed revolution.

  2. Insurrection: This is meant to apply to armed resistance from the populace in large numbers, leading to large armed battles. This could include battles between civilian groups as well as battles against authorities, or even battles with some police/national guard units against the nominal authority.

  3. Civil War: This term is chosen to reflect the situation where State or local governments get into the action of choosing sides. Just like the original Civil War, this would be Blue States versus Red States for the most part, with purple states getting a real mess. This kind of revolution is distinct from action starting at the civilian level. It is political power structures leading the fight.

  4. A Coup. Either a faction of internal government actors or else a faction of the military moving to replace the elected President and anyone else necessary to effect the change.

Now that we have some terms, let us begin to understand what a revolution actually is. I’m talking about the kind of action that would lead to a radical change. Either restoration of Constitutional authority, or a rewriting of the Constitution, or even the breakup of the U.S. as a single entity. Because as I see it, any action to the level of replacing the winner of the election is a break with the Constitution. If Trump is the motivation, he likely has broken the Constitution in order to incite the kind of action I mean. If Harris is the winner, a January 6 style mob is sufficient only if they succeed in altering the outcome of the certification.

Now you can argue with the premises I’ve set. I choose these guides to help frame the conversation to explain what level of involvement it would take from the populace to actually change things.

Okay, so in all three cases, what it would take to make a change is a large segment of the population sufficiently motivated to give up their nominal security and risk being the recipient of violence or death. How large?

Let’s look at a couple of recent examples to build a point of reference.

For Protest, look at the George Floyd and Black Lives Matter movements. There we had large numbers of people sufficiently motivated to turn out across the country, to risk violence against themselves, in order to affect change. What change was ultimately accomplished? We did see some efforts at police reform, some minor law changes. But the biggest takeaway was a failed slogan of “Defund the Police” that had the effect of harming the movement and making politicians who took steps at improvement look soft on crime. We saw nothing at the scale to replace a President or overthrow the federal government leadership and accomplish a coup.

Is there a scale of Protest that might lead to the kind of change desired, without being armed conflict? If Trump is President and institutes fascism and a turn toward authoritarianism, then I don’t think even sit-ins at every government building in the country would turn the tide. He would activate the National Guard and send troops to bash heads, and then we would either lose or move to type 2 or 3. If Harris is President, a dedicated mob assault on the Capitol this time would face a much better prepared force with National Guard in place. They wouldn’t be able to affect the certification without active inside involvement (i.e. a martyr in the Rotunda) or an extreme truck bomb. And that’s not likely either.

What about gun-wielding MAGAs marching through the streets and being loud? It either fades over time - lots of time, but time - or turns into 2 or 3.

Let’s talk Insurrection. I included the Jan. 6 events above rather than here because I wish to distinguish between a large protest growing unruly and a dedicated preplanned effort to take violent action. Now I know the event on Jan. 6 did have a faction with planned efforts. They were a small subset of the whole crowd, and primarily used the angry protestors as their chief tool to achieve their aims. They could have used firearms and explosives - they almost did. They could have had a much larger section of the crowd participating with the firearms and explosives. That’s what I mean by Insurrection in my terms.

To me, an Insurrection in this use would not even be against the certification. It would be likely after swearing in, and would be active in most if not all states. The point is that the country is in strife and very divided, and the anger level from both parties is growing. Insurrection would likely be neighbors or neighborhoods against each other. Large groups marching on federal facilities, taking on government agencies, even threats and violence against government officials.

What kind of scale would have to be involved? A militia group of a couple hundred attacking one governor’s mansion wouldn’t make changes. Some assassinations would be guerrilla action, but would just get the authorities after the perpetrators. Even a thousand people in each state marching on their capitol would just get the national guard deployed.

How many people using guns and how would they use them that would lead to the kind of effect to make the scale of change we’re discussing? Widespread and likely getting police and national guard units on each side.

That leads to category 3, Civil War. This is where state actors start the confrontation. It would likely start with legal notices to not recognize the election, to ignore orders they don’t condone. It would lead to a power struggle between governments. That kind of action would be a Constitutional Crisis just like the first Civil War. I can’t see that getting resolved by Congress or the Supreme Court. If we’ve gone that far, the President would either have to negotiate some surrender of their plans, or would have to call out the military to enforce their power. Either way, the Constitution is shredded. What happened after that would be entirely dependent on how things went down.

Now in a Civil War situation, we would undoubtedly see civilians in each state opposing their own government and their fellow citizens. So the insurrection type violence would be occurring. My point is that the State Actors leading the charge is a different event than the populace uprising against each other.

What about a Coup? While technically that would only take a small core to initiate, for them to actually take control and hold it would take a fairly large segment of the government or military or both. Because if, say, Marjorie Taylor Greene, Lauren Boebert, and Matt Gaetz smuggled a gun and shot Harris and Walz, it would turn things over to the Speaker and just get them arrested or killed. It would NOT trigger an uprising that would hold power transition. The Constitution wouldn’t be broken by that.

So for a Coup to be effective, it would almost certainly become a case 2 or case 3.

What would any of these scenarios take? LOTS of people being really pissed off, or feeling directly threatened such that they can’t keep their heads down. Not thousands, millions. It would also take monied interests getting involved. They would be choosing sides to protect their interests. The economy would tank, banking would be in chaos, and access to necessities like food and water would become a crisis.

That’s how I see it. I would welcome scrutiny that shows where I’m wrong. I would welcome alternatives to resolve the issues. Because when we get to this level, the U.S. is screwed, us citizens are screwed, and whoever makes it through the other side will have a drastically changed world landscape.

Did we?

In the 2011 Eqyptian Revolution, there were as many as 2 million people participating, in a single demonstration, in a country roughly a third of the U.S. population. The George Floyd protests were tiny by comparison.

The U.S. is far from being in a revolutionary situation. A large portion of the population perceive themselves, I think correctly, as having something to lose if the existing order is overthrown.

Also, the forces of the government are strong in the U.S. due to it being, by international standards, prosperous.

The large size of the country mitigates against revolution. Russian revolution? Yes, Russia is big. But times have changed. The authorities, in the U.S., could, in extremity, quickly travel to revolutionary hot spots, while stopping travel by revolutionaries…

Also, think of the misery of Russia due to World War I. The U.S. is no where near that.

What about the first American revolution? Pre-modern societies were all impoverished by modern standards. Too many Americans have too much to lose.

It would take something far worse than what we have today. Despite the media hype, the USA is still predominantly a safe, prosperous, stable nation with a high standard of living. The desperation just isn’t there yet. For such a populace, the bar to clear in order to have a revolt or revolution is way high.

Even someone like Trump seizing power and becoming a tyrant might not be enough. It would take that tyrant committing a widespread act of aggression to get things started, such as ordering the military to go shoot 1 million black/Hispanic people or something.

Thank you for helping my point. My reference for “large numbers of people” was to set some sort of scale. The impression is that there were a lot of marches and riots and closing down of some city parts. Yet, as you state, that was nowhere near large enough to be a revolution.

That’s what I’m trying to put into perspective. Is there a way to put a sense of scale on that bar?

What would motivate, say, 30 million Americans to ignore their jobs and daily routines to camp out in front of every legislature building in the country? Is 30 million enough?

I don’t think (as things stand) we’ll get to any sort of political revolution.

I do think (and have said in other threads) we may well end up in a variant of a “Cold” Civil, war, and I’d argue, we possibly could already define ourselves as being in one. Fundamentally, individual states (see Texas as a current example) will do what THEY want (in this case separate, state imposed border controls, ones I’d argue unconstitutional despite the lickspittles on the SCOTUS) and largely ignoring Federal requirements to comply. Another example would be the various Republican states ignoring judicial requirements for more representative electoral maps.

Given a circumstance where the Federal Government is under Republican control, I’d easily see the reverse come true as well. For that matter, the “sanctuary cities” could be seen as a reverse example, or even the refusals on a state-by-state level to enforce prior Federal restrictions on THC/MJ.

Could the increasing balkanization lead to a hot civil war? That depends on who is charge up top. Manifestly, most (D) want to rule the whole country, if only to preserve their own stability and maintain some rule of law that largely supports the political castes influence and power, rather than try to upset the whole thing for better or worse.

The former Republicans were largely the same, but they’ve mostly be ousted or submitted to MAGA, which has a very strong nihilistic bent. So yeah, I could see an unwelcomed political revolution from MAGA in the face of even moderate refusal to cooperate from individual states. But it’s not any sort of revolution I would want to see, and still consider it unlikely as things stand right now.

So in short (TLDR) I don’t see any revolution as likely that will apply to the whole. Increasing balkanization, which will likely lead to economic collapse due to being unable or unwilling to service our debt or similar issues becoming dominant. And once the pro-stability factors cited upthread are gone, or perceived to be so (safe, high standard of living/prosperous) then all bets are off. And I find it… interesting… that MAGA spends all it’s time selling propaganda that says those stability issues ARE gone, or at least at risk.

I think it would be, as said, something that requires a combination of two things:

  1. A person or party would have to seize power and become a tyranny. This in itself won’t be enough to spark a revolt, especially if done slowly and gradually.

  2. That person, or party, would have to do something so harmful and targeting that America couldn’t just sit there and take it. Something so intrusive that it cannot be ignored - and so widespread that it doesn’t just target a very small minority such as LGBT. Perhaps openly declaring racial war on some large-minority race or races, such as saying “From now on it’s open season on all black people; you can shoot blacks as you please and they are not allowed to defend themselves in any way.” Or, “Time to put all the Catholics in concentration camps!”

And even still, this might not necessarily lead to revolt if enough Americans are still living comfortable, decent, high-standard-of-living lives.

Without something extremely intrusive and deeply-affecting, the natural instinct of the vast majority of people will still be to sit on the couch and keep their heads low and go on with life, North Korea style.

From the Right, simply the ability to do so; they want one, badly. And might well get what they want if Trump gets into office again.

From the Left, it’s hard to say. They are both low in numbers and thoroughly demoralized, convinced that their opponents are all-seeing, omnipresent and invincible. It would take a major shift in their subculture for them to even try, because they “know” they would fail. Even voting is mocked as futile “electoralism”.

From the general public? Things would have to get a lot worse, and by then I have my doubts they could pull it off. If it does get to the point of “Nazi America” then any attempt at resistance will just get people massacred - do recall that it wasn’t a revolution that toppled Hitler. Probably the best you could hope for would be a rise of dissidence in future generations, but that would be after the entire non-white/non-Christian/non-cishet/non-Right population was exterminated and wouldn’t do them any good.

We’re already living in a political revolution in the US. It’s already happening. The Republican Party is now a neo-fascist personality cult. They live 100% in a post-truth world. Their leader is already promising to target political enemies and round up immigrants and deport them (separating families, and certainly some time spent in concentration camps). They have built an alternate reality propaganda right-wing media. They have trampled on norms and institutions, and have captured the Supreme Court. They have faux-think tanks that produce fascist blueprints for government. Their leader is a convicted felon, who hates Democracy and loves Autocrats, who hates our allies and loves our enemies.

The revolution has already happened for about 45% of the country. But it’s not complete. We have a chance to stop it in its tracks at least for a few more years, while the majority considers how they can deal with this long-term revolution without an open hot war.

This question (of what will bring millions of Amercans to leave their jobs and riot in the streets) has been mentioned in the Dope before
I remember reading a couple years ago a post that made a vital point with only one sentence.
Somebody asked simply:
“Has there ever in human history been a revolution in a society where most of the population was fat?”

As long as the shelves at Target and Walmart are full, Americans will not kill each other in mass numbers.

There could well be a few huge riots in several cities for a day at a time. (And even then, only if the weather is good.)
But after several hours, the rioters will get tired and hungry, and they will use the app on their phone to order a burger and coke with UberEats.

Americans (fortunately!) have no ability to imagine an unstable society.
Nobody alive remembers the hunger of the Depression.Americans might see pictures of destruction like ,say, Europe after WW II --but those are all in black and white, and don’t seem relevant to our world ( like quaint pics of horse-and-buggy days).

There are lots of militia groups out there, and lots of students willing to protest, etc.
But an actual civil war would make so many people so unhappy that they’ll stop participating as soon as the local McDonald’s runs out of buns and Starbucks runs out of Frappacino.

You might add Riot as a category. The Trump base appears to harbor disparate feelings. of discontent. A Trump win could unleash vengeance on perceived enemies. Widespread banditry and occupation of public lands is more likely than organized rebellion.

And in such a big country the weather will be good in DC but terrible in Atlanta this week and good in San Diego but terrible in Chicago the next. But, yeah, for a lot of the country the Big Riots will be something happening in some cities somewhere else so it will be tough to rally.

I had in an earlier time spoken of that the American “new civil war” scenario would be more along the lines of Troubles – targeted violence against persons and institutions, rise of explicitly no-go communities, mutual provocations etc. lots of individual deaths but no mass set piece battles and no situation where one side truly overcomes the other.

Yes, I find that more likely than a replay of the Civil War. Both because modern circumstances don’t divide the nation (especially its military) up anymore in a way that dividing into two antagonists is really practical, and because in an open war whichever side has the actual military would simply crush the one that doesn’t.

Terrorism, though? That’s not so easy to deal with just by smashing everything with overwhelming force. Especially when the sides are so intermingled.

It’s a situation we’re already in. Election workers are the targets of defamation campaigns and public officials now need security. Weather forecasters are the target of death threats. FEMA has to move their operations in order to avoid roaming militias who are targeting them.

The war is already happening. It’s just not manifesting as two standing armies firing muskets at each other. If Trump wins in 2024, he will unleash his DOJ on traditional media and political opponents, all to silence their dissent, and not due to any actual criminal activity. Racists and xenophobes will be like the brown shirts, showing up at protests to try and start fights and beat up on “liberal scum”. There will be provocateurs on the left as well, although they won’t have the backing of an entire political party/establishment.

The right-wing has been organizing itself for 3 decades, gradually moving more and more toward authoritarianism. If Trump wins in 2024, this will be their moment to fully seize power.

I do not see it,

Revolution is hard to discuss because it is so hard to define. One could say that Trump’s pledge (since walked back) of a day one dictatorship is a revolutionary manifesto, But I think his plan for next year is more like Indira Ghandi’s infamous emergency:

I want to thank everyone for the great comments.

Hmmm. I feel like this would be the leading edge of Insurrection. I don’t think the actions you describe would overthrow the government. Those are crimes - large, organized crimes, but crimes.

Depending upon how widespread, it could be difficult to stamp out. If unchecked, it would escalate, eventually leading to one of the other cases.

Indeed, an argument can be made that it has been happening, it’s just on a slow burn. Building from the militia movement in the '90s and the divisive, hateful trend from right-wing radio and media. The Tea Party fight against negotiation and compromise. The reactionary response to the progressive social improvements in society.

These have been festering for decades. Along comes Trump making it okay to express racism, prejudice, and fear against the “other”. This emboldened the aggressive right. Obstructionism, deconstruction of government agencies. Cutting regulations and laws that protect the environment and the people from the powerful and monied, i.e the corporation class.

The Jan 6 insurrection is a flashpoint showing this progression. Threats to election workers and FEMA workers is a step on that ladder.

So yes, I do see that could continue to escalate, and those are likely next steps.

When I started the thread, my focus was on the perception of revolution as an open conflict. That’s what the word evokes.

A “Cold Revolution” is a very different concept. The slow rightward slide of the Overton Window in politics and the rise of the militant right is a transformation of society. It already has had effects on the government, like the transformation of the Supreme Court.

The left is extremely behind the curve in responding to this social transformation.

I’m certainly not saying any of these categories is likely. I’m trying to show why they are not.

The Cold variety is something that has possibility.

My concept of Civil War presumes the actual military would fracture along the lines of the conflict. The President and administration might order the military to attack a protest state against their National Guard. While there is a strong culture in the military of chain of command and following orders, there could be resistance to this from the units involved. If some unit commanders disagree with that action, in the face of a fracturing country, some unit commander might refuse, potentially switching sides.

Unlikely? All of what we’re discussing is unlikely.

I remember that the past few times we ever had threads about a Civil War 2.0 in the United States, some Dopers would breezily assume that the Democrats would have the military on their side. There was never a scenario taken into account, however, where it was the Republicans who had the military (or at least, the commander-in-chief was an R.)

In which case I agree with the OP; despite the military slightly leaning R, it could be fractured depending on how overt and blatant the orders were.

Try to imagine that Trump actually does what he says he will do. Arrest Harris, Walz, Biden, and throw the keys away, close newspapers and TV networks, replace the whole civil service with his lackeys and so on. I could see all the NE and all the western states simply ignoring the Federal government and going their own way. Then Trump’s gotta get the military involved.

They would all need a currency. Trump would print moeny for himself on weekends.

Some for good; some for purely selfish reasons.