What would it take to interest you in a white collar union?

In My Humble Opinion
1

What could a white collar union do for you that would really make you want to join?

Could it help raise your wages? Wages have been stagnant for most workers in America over the last few years, what if you got raises that rose as fast as, say, corporate profits did?

Could it help with health insurance? Suppose a white collar union worked to make health benefits portable between jobs in a real way, not like the stupid COBRA program with its crushing payments for the unemployed. Maybe getting health benefits disassociated from employment?

Could it help with hours? In Europe some people work 35 hours a week and make full time wages with benefits. Would that be a big factor for you?

Could it help with personal growth? Finding ways for people to seek out new jobs and careers that more fully utilize their talents without risking thier homes and their families’ welfare as they do so?

Could it help with employee/management relations? I have seen SO MANY rants on the Dope about asshole bosses, it must be a pretty common condition. (This jibes with the personal experience of those I know, and with mine, too.) Would a union that could give employees a way of dealing with or limiting the power of asshole bosses to make their employees’ lives miserable be attractive?

OK, this is not a thread for posting about why a union could never work or what bad effects unions might have for corporations or capitalism. This is just about the things a union might be able to do for employees that would make them attractive to people. There’s already a thread about why people wouldn’t want to join a union.

2

Make it easier to terminate the dead weight. I deal with union guys and they are the laziest r’tards I’ve ever seen. Get rid of seniority and go for merit based advancement.

3

At my last employer, there wasn’t any union for my job classification (management systems auditors) and we could have used one.

The expected work week was 60 to 80 hours, though of course you were paid for 40; if you didn’t work that much, they fired you. Actual skill didn’t really matter. The company had a long history of engaging in unethical business practices and firing anyone who mentioned it. One guy was badly hurt and mildly crippled in a traffic accident driving on business, and the company tried to screw him out of some of his benefits. When he came back he was still not in great shape, and he tried to limit his work to just 45-50 hours a week, so they fired him.

I ended up leaving and I’m sure glad I did, but when I was there, if someone had passed around a union sheet I would have signed without hesitation.

4

[QUOTE=Burrido]
Make it easier to terminate the dead weight. I deal with union guys and they are the laziest r’tards I’ve ever seen. Get rid of seniority and go for merit based advancement.
[/QUOTE]

It does not sound as if you are really interested in joining a union, just having an easier time dealing with union workers. I’m not sure if this is a sound basis for attracting people who would actually like to join.

Except that dead weight 'tards who work the system to get by without doing their share are a pain in the ass to co-workers, too, much of the time. I’m not sure how that would work, though, because part of the appeal for unions for me and I’m sure many others is, fewer or no arbitrary firings by management.

5

[QUOTE=Evil Captor]
Could it help raise your wages? Wages have been stagnant for most workers in America over the last few years, what if you got raises that rose as fast as, say, corporate profits did?
[/quote]

I’m happy with my wages. No idea what our corporate profits are. We’re a non-profit organisation.

[QUOTE=Evil Captor]
Could it help with health insurance? Suppose a white collar union worked to make health benefits portable between jobs in a real way, not like the stupid COBRA program with its crushing payments for the unemployed. Maybe getting health benefits disassociated from employment?
[/quote]

I think we should have universal coverage, so unions should work toward that. But I’m not sure how that would work between an union and an employer. I see it as an arrangement between unions and the government.

[QUOTE=Evil Captor]
Could it help with hours? In Europe some people work 35 hours a week and make full time wages with benefits. Would that be a big factor for you?
[/quote]

I could use more time. My boss chides me for occasionally working at home on my days off (I’m on a 4/40 schedule), and now wants me to keep track of it so I can be comped. The one thing I would like is to be able to telecommute. That’s a possibility, and it would be an arrangement between me, mmy boss, and the VP.

[QUOTE=Evil Captor]
Could it help with personal growth?
[/quote]

The company would, I think, gladly accommodate me if I went back to school. Not a possibility with my present schedule, but I think an arrangement might be made.

[QUOTE=Evil Captor]
Could it help with employee/management relations?
[/quote]

I’m happy with my bosses.

There is one thing I’d like to see: more vacation time. We get two weeks a year, available after one year. Two weeks is pretty much standard in this country. I think all fulltime workers should get at least three weeks a year. This country is just too big. While many people can, say, visit relatives over a weekend or have a weekend get-away, the distances are often too great for that. Vacation time must be used. If vacation time is used on a few short trips, then that leaves no time for a proper vacation. Would that entice me to join a union? Maybe… Probably. But we have a nice little office and a union might destroy the relationships. So I probably wouldn’t join a union as long as I’m at this employer.

6

If I had a white collar union, I’d join it in a heartbeat.

7

There is nothing that could persuade me to join. I am a managerial worker and also a shareholder (however small). I don’t understand who the “them” as in “me versus them”. Our company is a publicly traded mega-corp and no one person owns it. I choose not to think of myself as a serf pleading my case to a lord. I am a part of it just like everyone I work with is no matter how well or poorly we are doing. CEO’s and upper level management types work long hours and often get fired at the drop of a hat. I don’t think they are any better than me although they make more money than I do for the time-being.

Unions represent a pathetic and flawed view of self. If you want something, find a way to get it. It may take a while or you may never get it but that is between you, mother nature, and the free market. Most people grew out of having “adults” speak up for them at about age 12. There are no adults that need to hire a bully to harass and extort things on their behalf. If you want to belong to a collective, move to a commune and leave the adults alone. There is a special place in hell for both the AFL-CIO and the United Auto Workers who have ruined countless lives and will ruin many more in time through their perverse brand of thuggery and self-serving nature.

I prefer to make my own way do or die, succeed or fail just like nature intended. I don’t want to be lumped in with people that are beneath me anymore than I expect the people better than me at any given thing to be lumped in with me.

8

Who are the “Employees” and who are the “Management” here? Are managers not “White collar”?

9

Unionization might work for a factory assembly line where everyone is roughly equal in ability and doing rote labor. There, rewarding seniority over competence may not be that destructive.

But white collar work is different. The 80-20 rule applies. 80% of the value is created by 20% of the people. 80% of the problems are caused by 20% of the people. Unionize a place like that, and you can no longer get rid of the problem 20% or reward the vital 20%.

If my company unionized, I would quit tomorrow.

10

[QUOTE=Evil Captor]
What could a white collar union do for you that would really make you want to join?
[/quote]

Very little. I work in high tech, mostly startups recently and unions would be a turn off to most employees.

I’ve never had a problem getting paid what I think I’m worth. Frankly, I think I’m overpaid but I’m not going to argue with my boss.

I’ve always had excellent health insurance from all my jobs. When I was laid off COBRA was fine until I found a new job.

I’ve never had a job where I worked less then 45-50 hours a week, so this is something that would be possible. But I work in startups, it’s part of the landscape.

Frankly, this is not something I would think to look to a union for. I’ve always been very active in managing my career. There is an element of risk in changing jobs and careers, but I’ve never felt that it was something that I needed outside help for.

I strongly doubt this would be of much use in the high tech field. Idiot bossed are everywhere, as are idiot union shot stewards. I’ve had bad bosses, and I moved to other jobs within the company or switched jobs. Since this is much easier when you are a trained high tech person, I don’t see how a union would help. If anything, I think it would hinder my flexibility.

Dealing with hours and vacation time would be the major things that I feel a union could help with, but I think there are better ways to deal with those issue for a high tech employee like myself.

11

A few things would entice me. The first is a deal breaker.

  1. A 100% guarantee that the union would focus only on relations between management and employees, with no involvement in any political causes or contributions to any political candidates. The union would have to pay back all dues ever collected if this “by-law” were violated.

  2. Negotiate a menu of benefits, so that employees could, for example, trade off rate of vacation accrual vs percentage of health insurance contribution.

  3. Negotiate a commitment by management not to change “management systems” more than once ever 15 years. I can live with once a decade. Off the top of my head, I can recall working in the same organization under management by objectives, continuous quality improvement (total quality management), performance measures, visioning, team building, and on and on. Any of these systems will work, but changing them before you even get through a complete cycle is distracting and annoying.

  4. Negotiate a commitment that any layoffs or downsizing would impact management at least 20% higher than staff. Also, that no bonuses of any kind could be paid to management while downsizing of staff is occurring.

  5. And finally, some type of firm discipline for managers who insist that staff do things that are illegal. (I’ve had personal experiences with being asked to violate purchasing protocols.)

  6. Membership is voluntary. Negotiate with management that benefits negotiated by the union cannot be extended to non-union members for at least 5 years after negotiation. If management voluntarily proposes a benefit for all employees, that’s great. If the union had to negotiated (beg) for it, then only their members get it. Or is this just too irrational?

12

[QUOTE=Shagnasty]
There is nothing that could persuade me to join.
[/quote]

Shag, you have to learn to read the fine print.

There’s already a thread where your viewpoint and ONLY your viewpoint can be expressed. I linked to it in the OP just to make it easy for you.

Once again, read the fine print, bro. Perhaps you could start a thread somewhere about how when businesses band together to represent themselves before a more powerful agency (government) in the form of trade associations, they’re being responsible, good corporate citizens, etc., but when workers band together to represent themselves before a more powerful agency (management) they’re being serfs and children.

In another thread, is the key word.

13

[QUOTE=Johnny L.A.]
There is one thing I’d like to see: more vacation time. We get two weeks a year, available after one year. Two weeks is pretty much standard in this country. I think all fulltime workers should get at least three weeks a year. This country is just too big. While many people can, say, visit relatives over a weekend or have a weekend get-away, the distances are often too great for that. Vacation time must be used. If vacation time is used on a few short trips, then that leaves no time for a proper vacation. Would that entice me to join a union? Maybe… Probably. But we have a nice little office and a union might destroy the relationships. So I probably wouldn’t join a union as long as I’m at this employer.
[/QUOTE]

I agree you probably wouldn’t while you’re at this employer, but it’s nice to see you’re keeping an open mind on the topic. As for the vacation thing, couldn’t you get sick for a convenient week?

14

[QUOTE=Throatwarbler Mangrove]
Who are the “Employees” and who are the “Management” here? Are managers not “White collar”?
[/QUOTE]

It would probably depend on the particulars of the position. There are a lot of jobs that are "Management’ in name only. Frex, all the assistant managers at fast food restaurants and so forth. The REAL management is just giving them a little title, a little more money, and a little authority over people whose jobs are so bad they think of quitting as a viable negotiating tactic, while working them like dogs. They’d be welcome. District managers for those same fast food restaurants, not so much. They are too tied in with management interests. It would probably make sense to look at these things on a case by case basis, going on the principle of, “Does this person really represent management interests, or is he or she a worker with a fancy title?” rather than going on some abstract matter of title.

15

[QUOTE=Telemark]
Very little.
[/QUOTE]

See my response to Shagnasty.

16

[QUOTE=as_u_wish]
A few things would entice me. The first is a deal breaker.

  1. A 100% guarantee that the union would focus only on relations between management and employees, with no involvement in any political causes or contributions to any political candidates. The union would have to pay back all dues ever collected if this “by-law” were violated.
    [/quote]

I just don’t see how a union could do it’s job effectively and do as you require. The government defines the playing field between management and labor. Over the last few years, the influence of traditional labor unions has been so weak that the playing field has been skewed enormously in management’s favor. The first thing any labor union that took its role in representing its interests seriously would have to do, is work with whoever they could to get things back on the level. How could they do that without getting involved with candidates?

OK, this sound quite reasonable.

Also quite reasonably, though some managers would actively resent not being allowed to shoot themselves in the foot.

This is a really excellent idea.

I thought suborning illegal acts was already illegal.

I’ll have to think about that one.

17

[QUOTE=Evil Captor]
As for the vacation thing, couldn’t you get sick for a convenient week?
[/QUOTE]

No, I couldn’t do that.

18

[QUOTE=Evil Captor]
See my response to Shagnasty.
[/QUOTE]

Did you read the rest of my response? I went through why the ideas in your OP for the most part wouldn’t be an incentive for me but I listed the two things that would. I thought I was responding to the fine print of your question.

19

I only have a quick second - but yes, I would definitely be interested in a white-color union. I will check in tomorrow to say more. I MUST go to sleep now!!

20

Traditional union not so much, but the guild/group system is one I do like - Basically a group that provides services such as low cost insurance, legal representation, negotiation help, salary checking etc. Its up to the members how much of the services on offer they use. e.g. a lot of the contractors I work with belong to the PCG. I don’t know if there is an American equivalent.