What Would Jesus Drive: The SUV debate

Great Debates
81

Are you quite sure about that?

Is this, perhaps, an example of your sterling logic?

I find it remarkable, nay astounding, that you know so much about the genitalia of people you’ve never met. I find it even more remarkable that you’d find occasion to comment on it.

In fact, I find it astounding that so many in this thread seem to feel that insulting others is a reasonable debate tactic.

So, for the record, comments about someone’s penis size are only relevant to people who, apparently, obsess over penis size. I ain’t one of 'em. I would propose that penis size does not, in fact, influence one’s driving skill.

But if you’d like to challenge that, I do so hope you’ll provide a cite. Thanks.

Not quite. The logic is that if you’re so goshdarned terrified of being hit by an SUV, you must be quaking in your boots when you see a semi.

I don’t think most people plan to run stoplights. Most people don’t deliberately get into accidents. Semis are certainly involved in their fair share (mostly not because of the driver), and they certainly do greater damage. So, if your complaint about SUVs is their size, and you’ll attempt to scare people by commanding them to (paraphrased) “think of what it could do to your car if it hits you!” then I think it reasonable that you address what other vehicles, vehicles that share the same roads, will do to your car.

Julie

82

You can buy anything you want. So can I. If you or anyone else are trully concerned with your survivability odds in a car accident, you should drive the safest vehcile you can afford. Safest according to the environment in which you drive.

As I mentioned, in order to get lower insurance rates, my wife and I both have taken driving courses specifically tailored to SUVs. I realize that very few people have taken the course, but again the safety of my family is my number one concern. Your choice in vehicles does not concern me at all, but if you drive an Accord and get stuck in the snow, I’ll still pull you out. You can bitch about my SUV the whole way home. :slight_smile:

83

The main problem I have with SUVs and bigger cars and trucks is that those wanting small, inexpensive reliable cars are virtually ignored. Everything is designed around cars, walkers, bicyclists etc are way down the list. I have to have a car and would like something small like the old VW Beetle. The new ones are more for status or nostalgia and the opposite of its original purpose, cheap cars for the masses.

Drivers in general are not properly trained. Cars are getting faster, bigger, more powerful and more numerous and alternative modes are disregarded and underfunded. People unable or unwilling to drive for whatever reason are pretty much out of luck in much of the US.

84

I think your may be giving professional drivers too much credit. Their human just like everyone else. My brother drives a semi and his biggest bitch it the quality of the maintenance on the trucks.

Many of these guys drive too long with out sleep. We had a toxic spill here when a driver drove 17 hours straight, slept 3 hours, then drove another 17 hours. This was discovered when his real logbook was found hidden in the woods.

85

Just a word of caution, because I’ve met far too many people with full time 4WD systems that don’t understand how they work, and have a misplaced faith in the increased traction. (I’m not saying this is the case with jsgoddess, I’m just using her quote as a jumping off point).

A differential is the part that allows the wheels to spin at different rates. In full time 4WD there are three, one on each axle so the left and right wheels can rotate independantly, and and one in the center so the two axels can rotate independantly of each other. In allmost all full time 4WD systems, you do most of your regular driving with all three differentials unlocked. This is because a locked differential casues increased wear and tear. With this setup, the traction is actually worse than a two wheel drive vehicle. If one of the four wheels were to hit a slick spot and lose traction, it would rob the power of all the other wheels. In a 2WD drive, the same thing can occur of course, but the traction is a hair better because you only have to worry about two wheels. To illustrate: if the left rear wheel is in mud, a front wheel drive car will pull out easily, but a 4WD might be become stuck if the differentials are unlocked.

So, you ask, why would anybody drive one? It’s because you are supposed to lock the center differential when driving in less than ideal conditions. I’m continually suprised by the amount of people that don’t know this is required. When you lock the center differential, the axels will rotate in unison and power is divided in half between the axels. If one wheel slips it will rob the other wheel on the axel of power, but not the wheels on the other axel. The center differential needs to be locked if the vehicle is going to exhibit better traction.

Part time 4WDs are fine since they don’t have a true center differential. When you shift from from 2WD to 4WD and engage the rear axel, it is the equivalent of locking the differential - so no worries if you drive one of those.

Lastly, AWD and 4WD systems are not the same thing. All wheel drive systems have these funky differentials that can “sense” when a wheel loses traction and compensate for it, so the driver never has to worry about locking anything. AWD systems are probably superior to 4WD systems for road driving in inclement weather, but they typically lack the low range gearing seen in 4WD systems that make the 4WDs better off road.
Since I’m here, I may as well throw in my two cents about SUVs. When talking about emmisions and highway accidents, etc, putting an inordinate amount of blame on SUVs is missing the big picture. The problem isn’t the types of cars on the road, it’s the number of cars and the miles driven. The U.S. has the longest average commute in the western world (I’m pretty sure - but no cite). Most of us also do that driving solo. Thats’ the problem - not the gas milleage of SUVs. The difference in gas milleage is overstated anyway. The EPA gives the gas mileage for all the different cars. A jeep Cherokee (2WD - 4cyl) gets 19 mpg city and 24 mpg hwy, which is bad, but about the same as a mid-size sedan like the VW Passat, which gets 19 mpg city/ 26 hwy and your average minivan (Dodge caravan - also 19/26)

86

A comment about the snow issue…

A lot of people, especially city folk, tend to think that buying a SUV will automatically mean safe winter driving. This is definitely not the case. You have to know how to drive on snow and ice and, if you don’t, having an SUV isn’t going to help you (especially if you don’t know how to control a bigger vehicle). I think a lot of the SUV debate concerns this point… there was a recent report from my hometown (northern NY) saying that SUVs are actually the most common vehicle involved in minor accidents in heavy winter driving, b/c people think that they can suddenly drive like the roads are dry just b/c they’re in an SUV.

I’m not saying that this applies to everyone, or that SUVs aren’t any good in the snow. But when people start thinking that the make of car is more important to their safety than their driving skills, problems begin to develop.

87

P.S. I drive a '92 Ford Wagon with snow tires. Perfect winter driving record, baby!

88

NightRabbit, I noticed that exact thing last winter. It seemed to me there are two kinds of people in the snow: those who underestimate it and coast down the street, afraid to touch the gas pedal, and those who overestimate it and refuse to alter their driving patterns. Overconfidence due to anything, be it your faith in your 4-wheel-drive or your unfounded belief in your own superior driving skills, can be deadly. However, it is possible to strike the proper balance and drive well no matter what type of vehicle you own.

That very issue is part of why I think people should have to actually understand what they’re getting into when they buy an SUV. Of course, when you flip down the driver’s side visor on my Chero, there’s a big note explaining the different settings (there’s 2WD, 4-hi and 4-lo) and how to use them. There’s your instructions right there.

A Monkey With A Gun, thank you for providing an “official” cite that illustrates the point about compared fuel mileage which I attempted to make with my anecdotal evidence early in this thread.

89

Amen Monkey!

Like I said earlier, my Tahoe puts out a fraction of the emissions that the guy commuting 2 hours one way in L.A. does in his or her econobox. Not to mention tire wear etc.

90

that makes sense, however i think you should not have tp go to traffic school if it’s not your fault.

91

WHAAAAAAAA!!! What the Sam Hill has that got to do with anything? Seatbelts save lives across the board in any type of accident. You can’t just statistically discount one type of accident by saying “that won’t happen to me because I wear my seatbelt”. That kind of faulty logic could be applied to any type of accident. To selectively apply some statistics and ignore others to justify your belief that you are safer in your SUV is simply wishful thinking.

92

2 things i think about SUVs.

SUV drivers should have have to take an additional road test to prove they can drive them safetly in all road conditions one would come across.

SUV MPG requirments should be increased until they are on pair with cars.

93

Many people complain that the high death rates in SUVs are from rollover accidents. If you are in an accident and ware your seat belt you increase your chance of surviving 75%.

So, balance that out against the fact that the larger of two vehicles is usually the safer vehicle in a two car accident and it levels the field a bit.

In other words, a small car may not be as likely to roll, but, on the other hand it does not do as good against a bigger vehicle.

Again, I did not buy an SUV for the safety factor, but, in some cases it is the safer vehicle. And, if you wear your seat belt you significantly reduce the deadliness of a rollover accident.

94

I thought everyone knew Jesus drove a Moneylender from the temple.

95

Although tastycorn’s comments were obviously a little over-the-top, I think you’re stretching things a bit to consider it a personal insult. FWIW, I know exactly what he is talking about, although I don’t think I would have worded it that way. I see these super-aggressive types on the road every single day. And it’s not just men; plenty of women drive this way too (maybe they are obsessing over their breast size?;)) Seriously, though - to be fair, its not just SUV drivers; it’s quite often sports cars that you see driving dangerously. The difference is, the guy who’s doing it in a Miata is in a much more agile car, and one in which the damage isn’t going to be quite as catastrophic if it does get into an accident, as compared to the guy doing it in an Expedition.

But you miss the point. First of all, in addition to the already-mentioned fact that semi drivers have special training, they are also limited to the 2 right lanes on the freeway, and are barred from certain roads altogether. If I saw semis zipping in and out of the fast lane, you bet your boots I’d be terrified.

Second, when SUVs were a relatively new thing, it wasn’t much of a problem, because they were pretty rare, and were generally bought for their true purpose - as an offroad vehicle. But things are different now; they are being used as commuter cars. When you start getting to the point where close to half the cars on the road are SUVs, your chances of being hit by one dramatically increase. Semis are dangerous, but considering that we have to get goods from place to place, I don’t really see an alternative. If Semis were being marketed and sold as commuter vehicles for yuppies, then I’d have a big problem with it.

enipla:

Actually, that was exactly my point in the first place. A lot of people are buying SUVs under the mistaken impression that they are safer than cars, when in fact the relative safety factors are pretty much a wash. So while you’re not safer in an SUV yourself, you do make things more dangerous for everyone else. So the effect of the vehicle “arms race” is that deaths and injuries go up for everyone, but nodody is making themselves any safer. I don’t say this to denigrate anyone’s choice of vehicle, but only to point out what is an appalling trend in our society.

And in some cases, a car is the safer vehicle.

I’m not sure why you keep repeating this, since I have already pointed out why it’s irrelevant to the topic at hand. It’s relevant to overall safety, but it’s not relevant to relative safety of different vehicle types. People wearing or not wearing seatbelts is already factored in to the statistics for all accidents.

96

It struck me as one of those silly attempts to discredit SUV drivers by claiming that they only have SUVs for one reason, and that reason is goofily Freudian.

They also create a road hazard, at least in Ohio where they are forced by law to go ten miles an hour below the speed limit for cars.

Here’s my deal:

If a person is against SUVs because people can’t drive, fine. Require people to take extra classes.

If a person is against SUVs because they get bad mileage, why suggest minivans as a replacement? Why suggest pickups?

If a person is against SUVs because they are big, what about semis? What about vans?

If a person is against SUVs because some of the people who drive SUVs don’t need them, then I insist that what constitutes “need” be spelled out, explicitly, and alternatives must be offered. Alternatives which do nothing to solve the perceived problem aren’t acceptable. What good do they do?

I’ve lived in extremely rural areas my whole life, with the exception of 3 1/2 years spent in South Bend, Indiana. I’ve driven 2wd cars and trucks. I’ve driven 4wd trucks and SUVs. I’ve driven AWD cars. I’ve driven them on the roads here and on freeways. I’ve never driven an SUV the size of, say, a Suburban. My place of work is back a long gravel road that is not plowed in the winter. Occasionally, if we’re lucky, the county puts down cinders.

Since I do not own an SUV, I think I have a pretty good grasp on when I need one. And I need one about 20-30 times a year. I end up borrowing other people’s trucks/SUVs when possible (no one I know currently has an AWD vehicle), or not getting to work/doctor’s appointments/the market/the pharmacy when borrowing a vehicle isn’t an option.

I’m fairly tired of being told that these concerns are imaginary or that I’m unique in having them. There are a lot of assumptions being made and that, frankly, irks me.

Julie

97

Stupid question time…

Why is the purpose of a SUV to be an offroad vehicle? It’s certainly a use for it. But, my goodness, if that was all it was allowed to be used for, they wouldn’t stack up very well against a Baja Buggy for speed…

The purpose of a SUV is to be a utility vehicle. See? Even in the name. Admittedly, it’s more fun than a panel van… a bit sporting, even, but it’s there because it’s useful.

For example, my family lives in New York. Westchester. We’ve had a Jeep around since we moved here thirty years ago. Before that, we just borrowed a relative’s. Why? Well, for one thing, hills in winter. Sure, my Beetle can drive around in 18 inches of snow. I’ve done it. I just don’t appreciate it. When you live at the wrong end of a twenty degree quarter mile slope, you appreciate that.
Or there’s gardening. Flats don’t fit well in the back seat of a car, and the dirt gets everywhere. Not to mention the cherry tree… Or there’s the sailboat. Yacht Club’s not paved, it’s got a gravel driveway, and, well, it’s a lot easier to launch things with 4WD. Oh, and there’s the caustic chemicals and the sails and the ladders…

Course, there’s Costco Trips and moving people around, too…

And, then, there’s getting dressed up and using the same car to go to a nice five star resturant, or visit family, or to go see clients in.

Oh, sure, a station wagon’ll do half of it. So will a sedan. And a pickup. Thing is, it won’t do all of them.

As far as size goes, it seems that the American comfort level is pretty stable since the 1930s. Generally speaking, a SUV isn’t much taller than the 7 foot tall Model T, it’s not much heavier than a '57 Chevy, and it’s smaller than a '59 Cadillac Eldorado. Just seems to be a family size car.

As far as the minivan issue? Excepting the client part, sure. The difference between most SUVs and most Minivans is style.

Just about the only difference, for some of them.

Oh, sure, some SUVs are about conspicious consumption. Like the Excursion with the VW eating bumpers, or the rebodied Tahoe that is the H2. Big deal. They don’t sell that many, the people who buy them get what they deserve, and frankly, if it makes them happy, woop de doo. If it wasn’t a H2 it’d be something else just as wasteful.

Should they be regulated as cars? Heck yes. Stupid loophole. Is improving fuel efficiency important? Sure. Thing is, it is improving. Partially as a side effect, partially on purpose. Automobile manufacturers want to sell their cars for a long time. Oil’s finite. Yer given car these days is larger than the 80s, weighs more, has more space, more features, better performance, and gets the same or better milage than the catalytic converter choked beasts of '82.

Not saying it’s all good, but it’s getting better. And I’m not saying that people use them to go drive around in the mud and trees, I’m saying that the ability to do that was never the purpose of the car you see today, simply a design requirement to fufil the main job: Utility.

Or was the WW II Willys Jeep only driven offroad?

98

Julie, you need to come out to California for a couple days. I’ll let you drive my scoobie in rush hour traffic, or even just to the mall, and then we can discuss the relative genetalia of Hummer/Expedition drivers. :slight_smile:

As I mentioned way up at the top of the thread, I don’t really have a problem with bigger trucks out in the country. I tend to get along with them just fine in even the smallest of cars. People who grew up driving pickup’s and tractors seem to have a natural affinity for handling large vehicles. In the city, however, it’s a whole different story. These people do NOT know how to drive. They are dangerous in an accord, and they are just plain scary in anything larger.

For all of those pro-SUV gang that has never seen the application of SUV’s in California then, respectfully, you have no idea why we are so pissed off.

Doesn’t make people any less careless. May cut down on the stupidest of foul weather mistakes.

Hmmm, better mileage perhaps? Large pickups are just as much of a menace in the wrong hands.

It’s not the size, it’s the odds that one of em will hit me, which are going up astronomically as the average weight of vehicles soars. At fault accidents with Big Rigs do happen, but they are extremely rare compared to SUV’s.

99

blowero -

I guess what I was trying to address where the people that say SUVs are more dangerous than cars. I agree, depending on the driver, it’s pretty much a wash.

I misinterpreted the NTSB info on seat belt usage. I thought they where saying that 60% of the SUV rollover accidents resulted in death. In fact, they say that 60% of the deaths from accidents are from roll overs.

Anyway, I’m not really interested in the safety argument, so I’m gonna drop it.

From jsgoddess -

Good point, and good luck.

100

I can’t stand SUVs and most of the people who drive them. As for those who think that 4WD will magically dave them in the snow, I would politely recommend that they learn how to drive. My bet would be that 95 percent of SUV drivers would have no idea how to handle a lift-throttle oversteer condition on an icy road, and would be much better off if they had driven a nice front-wheel drive car.

That said, I find myself in the unenviable position of needing to get an SUV to tow my race car. Oh, the irony… :wink:

Besides, last time I checked, we don’t “need” lots of things in this country that we have. No one I know “needs” a 4000 sq ft house, and I’m sure it uses WAY more energy than an SUV.

So, I agree. Very few people need an SUV. SUVs are dangerous to others and to themselves. People driving them are not more often than not unskilled in their operation, and drive them unsafely. Oh well. Not much one can do about it, is there?