The legality of use of force or arresting people in that situation is entirely based on whether a reasonable person would feel threatened in that situation, so how you would feel if you were placed in that situation does have to do with the legality of the situation. You made a comment that is directly related to the legal status of the situation, and are unwilling to clarify what your position is on the situation beyond making statements that indicate that you think that such behavior meets the criteria for speech that should be criminalized, but not that it should be criminalized. When asked for clarification of your views, you claim that I’m ‘putting words in your mouth’, but are unwilling to state that my conclusion about your position based on the implication of what you have said is actually wrong - just that you didn’t explicitly state it.
I’m perfectly willing to concede that you didn’t explicitly make the statement that such behavior should be illegal, and don’t see any use to furthering this particular line of discussion.
Again, they were being verbally aggressive and aggressive with body language, but there were no threats for them to go through with. When someone refused to comply with their asshole demands, one of the protestors continued talking with her after the others left.
No, I think you misunderstand the law. D.C. is not a stand-your-ground jurisdiction, and if you feel reasonably threatened, that does not imply that the law sanctions your decision to shoot someone.
Nor does it imply that the person who made you feel threatened is or should be guilty of threatened assault. There is a difference between someone causing you to feel reasonably threatened, and someone committing a threatening act.
There are a few exceptions. Someone can’t yell threats at you, or threaten you without yelling. You can’t spit on someone or pepper spray their face.
But, in general, if someone is yelling at you and you hit them or pepper spray them, you’re probably at way more risk for legal trouble than they are. Especially if it’s just that one time and there’s no pattern.
Ultimately, it depends if you can convince a judge your action was justified. Don’t get me wrong, I am very much against people yelling in other people’s faces. I’m the one that hit the only person to ever do that to me, and I’d probably do it again.
I’m just pointing out that harassment laws and free speech rights are constantly being balanced by the courts and in the US free speech reigns supreme.
An part of an online harassment law was struck down as unconstitutional, a law intended to prevent online harassment and cyberstalking. It used the language “annoying or alarming behavior” and was geared towards guys that send 100’s of creepy emails to women telling them how beautiful their hair is today, and girls that text U UGLY to their ex-boyfriend’s new girlfriend 100 times a day and other behavior that was annoying or alarming but hard to parse as threatening. It was shot down for free speech reasons.
IANAL, but I’m speaking legally, not morally - and striking the first blow entails a legal risk no matter what.
Are you drunk?? You’re not responding to anything I’ve written, just what you want to think I’ve written. Nobody here owes anyone, especially you, a legal opinion of the incident in order to post in this thread. Have you read the thread title? I specifically made a comment responding to that and to people who deny that anyone else could feel a different way that they do to being yelled at. Yet you keep demanding I answer to you on my views on criminality in order to prove I hold the right view – or else what?
I hope everyone here reads what you’ve written and sees what you are.
?? Not sure what you think you are replying to, the question posed by the op was a general what would you do in a situation. I answered it, after that what happened at minute one or five of the confrontation that prompted the question does not really matter. But as to to the whole they was no threats, yes their was a threat. When a person (especially a mob) intrudes into your personal space and makes demands of you to perform an action, their is an unstated or else.
So your use of force against them would be justified not based on what they said or did, but on what they did not say or do, but that you imagined that they might say or do.
That’s so interesting. What do you think about literal Nazis, who call for a state that, like Hitler’s, would necessitate genocide? Is it okay to punch them because they’re threatening?
What do you think about protestors who walk around with automatic weapons to make some asshole point about gun rights? Would it be okay to tackle them and take their guns away, or just to plain old shoot them before they can bring their weapons to bear? Given the recent double-murder by one of those gun assholes, is it okay now to shoot them from a distance to prevent their incipient crimes?
I find the idea of being “threatened” by a bunch of asshole teens to be borderline pitiful; but I think the Nazis and the gun-toters present a much greater threat. It’s really interesting to me that anyone would feel otherwise.
It’s disingenuous to pretend that the reaction of the average person should be, “Oh look! A shouty mob heading my way… this can only be good news!” Unless, of course, the mob is part of expected and overdue reinforcements, it should induce the very normal fight or flight instinct. Left without the ability to make a hasty retreat, feelings of being cornered, overwhelmed and intimidated is a normal reaction for any animal, including an evolved primate. ‘Never corner an animal’ is a common enough refrain that it shouldn’t induce false surprise or admonition of a likely overreaction in self-defense. That humans can sometimes restrain themselves from lashing out is usually due to the realization that they are facing an insurmountable force and are more likely to survive by assuming a submissive stance, essentially throwing themselves on the tender mercies of the mob. Post fact rationalizations of, “See? You were never in any real danger!”, are equally disingenuous.
If it were common that mobs assaulted diners, then you would have a point, and them getting away unscathed would not mean that they were in any danger.
Since it is not common (or in fact, at all) that mobs assault diners, then it would require disingenuous rationalizations and creative imaginations of a possible “or else” in order to justify reacting to their words with violence.
Don’t get me wrong, they were assholes, and what they did was an assholish thing to do. But lots of people are assholes, and if I were allowed to assault anyone I thought was being an asshole, then I wouldn’t have time left to tie my shoes.
Were I the diners I would feel annoyed, probably even pissed. But physically threatened? Not anymore than anytime someone acts like an asshole towards me.
Like I pointed out, road rage is a far greater threat to your average person than some people egging you on at a diner. We aren’t allowed to engage them in violence when we feel threatened by the actions of other drivers, why should someone who feels threatened due to the words of some assholes be allowed to respond with violence?
lol, okay you win the internet. An angry mob going into a diner and harassing the patrons by getting up into their faces shouting at them and demanding them to recite anything is in no way shape or form threatening, or should ever be viewed that way. We are so far apart on our views on this it will be a waste of time continuing.
Maybe we are talking about a different situation, or maybe you aren’t aware of what actually happened, and are basing your opinion off of misinformation.
It is a waste of time continuing until you articulate your “or else what”. If you can’t articulate what a threat is, how can you say that there is one? Until then, it is just pure fear-mongering on your part.
This rage that is being spread on the right over minor incidents like this is just another attempt to rile up the racists against BLM. See the poor white diners get their meal interrupted, oh no, that is somehow equivalent to violence! Time to start shooting! Please.
