What would you order from this menu?

[Hunter_Hawk]

@Wendell_Wagner

Let’s find out. Find the menu for a currently existing restaurant that’s closest in style to the one that OleOneEye is proposing. Post it. Let’s see what the reaction of Dopers to that menu is like. I don’t have much sympathy with OleOneEye for complaining that the complaints and advice of Dopers isn’t what he wants. We’re giving him our honest reactions. If he didn’t want them, he should have posted to a different board.

Here’s the menu for a local southwestern-inspired place. It’s been a while since I’ve been there, but ISTR the prices were in the same general ballpark:

http://www.cactusrestaurants.com/menudinner.html
Neighborhood French bistro, the cheaper and more casual sibling of a much fancier place: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5832558/luc-dinner.pdf

Neighborhood tapas bar: http://ochoballard.com/img/ocho-tapas-menu.jpg

ETA: Another neighborhood French place: http://www.cafepresseseattle.com/pdf/Casse_Croute.pdf

[pulykamell]

@Wendell_Wagner

Let’s find out. Find the menu for a currently existing restaurant that’s closest in style to the one that OleOneEye is proposing. Post it. Let’s see what the reaction of Dopers to that menu is like. I don’t have much sympathy with OleOneEye for complaining that the complaints and advice of Dopers isn’t what he wants. We’re giving him our honest reactions. If he didn’t want them, he should have posted to a different board.

I don’t want to derail this thread. I agree with a lot of the criticism. Note that I said some of the complaints would be the same (about price and unfamiliarity of ingredients) but the general pairings of flavors would be more favorably received.

Like I said, I think the menu is a mess, but even with a great menu, some of the comments would be the same. (If you insist here’s something that I would call “upmarket comfort food.” Starters are $9-$13. Main courses are $18-$27. People here would complain about that. People might also be bewildered by some of the offerings on the menu. And look at what they call “mac and cheese” [which they do put in quotes]. For some reason I can’t quite verbalize, it works on that menu, but the “fish and chips” in the OP’s menu doesn’t work for me.)

[wonky]

I like interesting combinations of foods, but the menu isn’t working for me for two reasons:

1. I can’t eat peppers. I like them (well, except for bell peppers) but I can’t eat them, and
2. I love vegetables and don’t really love fruit. The menu is very short on veggies and very very long on fruit.

[Swords_to_Plowshares]

@Hunter_Hawk

Here’s the menu for a local southwestern-inspired place. It’s been a while since I’ve been there, but ISTR the prices were in the same general ballpark:

http://www.cactusrestaurants.com/menudinner.html

An excellent menu, IMO. I see so many things that I’d want to order. It’s plain to see that the restaurant has a southwest theme, but when it ventures out with other ingredients it does so quite well.

[Digital_is_the_new_Analog]

I like food…and I like variety. There are several things I’d try, and probably enjoy.
I’m not qualified to comment on whether this would work for a restaurant…but I’m worried about one thing I saw reading through this thread.

It looks like the OP is in love with his idea, and is defending it against the criticism given. Several of the people giving the criticism appear to have valid experience in this space.

I’m not saying this can’t/won’t work…but I’ve seen too many ideas fail because someone was convinced they were right and refused to change.

For instance - there have been a lot of comments about needed a more standard item on the menu to appease the less adventuresome person in the group. The OP says that may happen in a later version of the menu. Why wait? What’s the benefit of starting with a restriction that may keep potential customers from trying the menu out?

That said…good luck!

-D/A

[Johnny_L.A]

OK, I’ve read the thread now.

I was worried my initial comments might have come across as too harsh!

[Chronos]

Another point, come to think of it: The familiar names on the menu could end up working against you. The descriptions of a dish on a menu are for the people who don’t already know what the dish is. But you might well get someone who glances over the menu, sees “Fish and chips”, and says to himself “Hm, fish and chips sounds good, I’ll take that”, without reading the rest of the description. And that guy is likely to be upset when what he gets isn’t at all what he expected.

[Cazzle]

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

To be honest, I think you need a lot more meat on the menu. Why would you have a veggie burger, but no real burger?

A good point - the burger isn’t meaty enough for meat lovers and, with the cheese and mayo, isn’t veggie enough for vegans. That narrows the market considerable.

[It_s_Not_Rocket_Surgery]

@OleOneEye

The point about including some more .. mainstream dishes is well-taken. Later versions of the menu will probably have, if not a steak, then some kind of a pork dish, and** maybe some variation on meatballs or meatloaf.** This is just a core set of items for now.

The bolded section shows, I think, the fundamental issue many of us have with the menu. He or she has a default way of thinking about this in which every menu item has to be a variation on something else. Why?

[Idle_Thoughts]

I can’t see myself ordering anything.
Now if you had some sort of burger on there, I might.

[drastic_quench]

After reading all of these criticisms, almost all of which seem quite valid, I keep picturing Gordon Ramsay doing his Kitchen Nightmares rant about the menu. You know he’d be pissed about calling the salmon fish and chips.

For these prices, I would very much want to see steak, duck, lamb, and pork on the menu. It needn’t be t-bone and potatoes or butterflied chops, either. There’s lots of interested and underrated cuts that you can do really interesting, yet accessible preparations with, like pork belly.

[Johnny_L.A]

@Idle_Thoughts

Now if you had some sort of burger on there, I might.

Well, there’s a veggie burger!

But yeah, you pretty much have to have red meat on the menu.

It’s amazing how difficult it is to get a good burger in Seattle. Belltown, anyway. I tried Frontier Room, reckoning a BBQ place might know how to make one. Didn’t like it. There’s a pub I like, but their burgers are a bit bland. I usually go for the California Chicken on Focaccia sandwich. I’ve tried a couple/few of other places, but the burgers weren’t good enough to remember. The best burger I’ve found is at Two Bells Tavern. Tasty, but greasy.

[Little_Nemo]

@Johnny_L.A

To address Little Nemo’s point, when I eat out I’m just as likely to seek out ‘exotic’ food as ‘comfort’ food. Only what my coworkers think is ‘exotic’, I think is normal. That is, I like Vietnamese, Japanese, Indian, Ethiopian… whatever. For me, it’s ‘What do I feel like today?’ My coworkers think those are ‘exotic’. On the other hand, I’m quite happy with a burger or a sausage or a California Chicken Sandwich. The places I tend not to go to are the ones that are ‘exotic for the sake of being exotic’.

I think there’s a distinction between exotic food and ethnic food. Something like banh chung or kitfo may seem exotic to you or me but a Vietnamese or Ethiopian would think of these as comfort food like his grandmother made.

This point was brought home to me when I picked up a British cookbook of recipes for “comfort foods”. It included a bunch of recipes for curry dishes which I understand are mainstream cuisine in the UK. But in the US, curry is considered quite exotic and nobody would think of it as a mainstream comfort food.

[Starving_Artist]

@It's Not Rocket Surgery

The bolded section shows, I think, the fundamental issue many of us have with the menu. He or she has a default way of thinking about this in which every menu item has to be a variation on something else. Why?

The thinking is probably that a person can get meatloaf or meatballs anywhere, and so he (I’m assuming OleOneEye is a guy) is looking for some way to distinguish his food from everybody else’s. I can understand that. The trouble lies in trying to make the components in these variations work in harmony with each other so as to create a dish that is not only new and different, but also tastes great. What’s the point of coming up with a new meatloaf dish if it doesn’t taste at least as good as the original, and preferably better? You want people to think “Damn! I didn’t know meatloaf could taste this good!” rather than “Meh, it’s okay. I’ve had better.” The difference lies in coming up with ingredients and cooking methods that are in harmony with and compliment each other. It isn’t enough to make your dishes different if all it accomplishes is to make them taste odd.

[drastic_quench]

@It_s_Not_Rocket_Surgery

The bolded section shows, I think, the fundamental issue many of us have with the menu. He or she has a default way of thinking about this in which every menu item has to be a variation on something else. Why?

Good call. There’s a lot to be said for straightforward and kickass food. On the episode of No Reservations where Bourdain was in San Fransisco, the thing he seemed to rave about the most was the old school, prime-rib and vegetable, un-hip, and martini soaked House of Prime Rib. Sometimes a chef can defy your expectations simply by being unexpectedly good - and leave the mango chutney infused pickled hash browns at home.

[Johnny_L.A]

@Little_Nemo

But in the US, curry is considered quite exotic and nobody would think of it as a mainstream comfort food.

I would, and I’m California born and raised. For me, it’s breakfast food.

I don’t consider the ethnic cuisines ‘exotic’. Again, it’s just stuff I like. And there’s little more ‘comforting’ that a bowl of pho on a cold, rainy day. It’s my coworkers who think they’re ‘exotic’.

[Wendell_Wagner]

OleOneEye, you haven’t even told us what you’re going to call this restaurant. This is an important question. Most new places are easy to talk about. You can call them the Ethiopian place on Main Street, or the Cajun place across from the mall, or the gastropub along the river. With such a vague theme as your restaurant has, it’s going to be hard to even talk about it. You seriously need someone like Gordon Ramsay to scream at you to make you rethink the idea of the restaurant.

[OleOneEye]

I’ve waded through the replies and given the matter some more thought.

There have been some very good points raised. Of course I’m not going to change everything about the restaurant, but I’m open to changing some things.

Some examples:

• There will almost certainly be a chocolate dessert, probably an American-style moist chocolate layer cake with buttercream frosting.

• I’m on the fence about steaks and burgers, but I’d likely add a nice piece of pork - maybe a pork chop or a boston butt steak - and some meatballs/meatloaf and gravy.

• I could offer an assortment of sides, re-using some of the more unsual root vegetables in different preparations, and add some more veggie sides.

• It sounds like there are some main dishes that don’t really work as main dishes. One thing I’m considering is reformatting this as mostly a small plates menu, making the sides a la carte items, and maybe having a small selection of mix-and-match combination plates, like the “Dinner” section on this menu.

Thank you for all the thoughtful replies. I was mostly looking for statistics - the discussion has been a helpful bonus.

This restaurant is still very early in the planning stages. If it happens at all, this is years out.

In the meantime, back to the drawring board. I may need to find inexpensive, low-risk ways of test-marketing the food locally.

Again, thanks all!

(Also, it’s not important, but I’m a she.)

[MPB_in_Salt_Lake]

@OleOneEye

This restaurant is still very early in the planning stages. If it happens at all, this is years out.

In the meantime, back to the drawring board. I may need to find inexpensive, low-risk ways of test-marketing the food locally.

Again, thanks all!

I think testing the waters with some of your menu items sounds like an excellent idea.

Maybe outside Bumbershoot next year? (Of course that my not be practical from a logistical standpoint)

Once again, best of luck to you in this exciting new challenge!!!

Matthew (who has always had exceptionally good times and exceptionally good food when visiting Seattle)

[Evil_Captor]

Gonna borrow Mean Old Lady’s formatting, with my own coments.

Savory Black Bean Pastry
Layers of black beans, poblano and jalapeño peppers, pancetta and queso fresco. $8.95
Don’t like black beans or jalapenos, wouldnt order…

Avocado-Roasted Corn Salad
Avocado, roasted corn, queso fresco and banana chips, drizzled with a balsamic reduction. $7.95
Definitely worth trying.

Dumpling Soup
Chicken and apple dumplings in broth, garnished with fried scallions. $7.95
Don’t like dumplings, so no.

Chile Pepper Fries
French-fried Fresno and jalapeño chiles, served with mango mayonnaise. $7.95
Don’t like fries, don’t like jalapeno, no.

Crab Empanadas
Waste of crab. Crab has a delicate flavor, the cream cheese would overwhelm all by its lonesome. No.

Fish and Chips
Pan-fried pistachio-encrusted salmon fillets, served with blue potato wedges and red cabbage slaw. $16.95
Due to many, many experiences, I associate fish and chips with greasy flavorless mess. Would just see the heading and skip right over .No.

Veggie Burger
Lentil and split pea burger, with house-made farmer cheese, poblano relish and mayonnaise; served with yam fries. $13.95
Hypocritical Option: Add pancetta for $3.
Sounds good, actually. Poblano is my kinda pepper, mild but full of flavor. Would try it.

Roasted Chicken and Savory Cranberries
Herb-roasted chicken; cranberry sauce roasted in the bird; château taro roots. $15.95
Meh. I like roasted chicken and cranberry sauce, but hell, this is meat and three stuff in the south this time of year.

Pineapple Braise
Pineapple braised in a roasted peanut-tomato sauce; served over savory vegetable cornbread. $14.95
Oh, yeah. Peanut tomato sauce sounds intriguing, the sweet succulent pineapple against the nice gritty mouth feel of cornbread … would have to try it.

Spinach-Chorizo Sauté
Sauté of spinach, house chorizo and couscous in an arbol-pineapple sauce; served with yogurt and an apple-walnut salad. $14.95
Best bet on the menu, from what I see. chorizo sausage against the sweet pineapple sauce and creamy yogurt … I’d try it.

I do not eat desserts, as a general rule. Not a diet thing, just dont like em that much. A good piece of chocolate is better than almost all deserts.