I’ve been reading some confusing reports about the identity of the civilians on board that sub that collided with the Japanese fishing boat. A website entitled “Bushwatch.com” says that they were buddies/GOP campaign contributors/oil dudes/“fat cats”, etc. I’ll go back and read some more about it now, but I’m wondering if any of you have heard any of this. Official news says the sub captain is keeping mum about the civilians’ identities. Can anybody here clarify?
I read in the paper a couple of days ago that one of the civilians in question was a rich Texan who is in the oil business and had given a bunch of money to a naval museum or memorial of some kind. The paper didn’t say anything about any friendship he might have had with Bush, but I doubt that Bush being president made any difference in his getting a ride on the submarine. He had done something before Bush was president that made the Navy happy, so it sounded like he would have been there anyway.
Here is a list of Civilians that were aboard:
Jay and Carol Brehmer of Overland Park, Kan.
Jack and Pat Clary of Stow, Mass.
Helen Cullen of Houston
John M. Sealy and Leigh Anne Schnell Hall Sealy of Texas
Mike Mitchell Irving of Texas
Mickey and Susan Nolan of Honolulu
Anthony and Susan Schnur of the Woodlands, Texas
Todd and Deanda Thoman of Houston
Ken Wyatt and Catherine Graham Wyatt of Golden, Colo.
Having civilians aboard this submarine is not some isolated incident. I would have to agree with Bob that these people would probably have been on that sub regardless of who was President.
Civilians on subs apparently, fairly common.
I’d suspect that any/all Presidents, congress members, other assorted dignataries could probably assist some one into being one of said civilians.
So what? Even if you could paint the picture that one of the civilians aboard had been Mr. Bush’s best friend in grade school (and I’m not suggesting anything of the sort), what would that prove/suggest etc?
There’s been conflicting reports of what effect, if any, said civilians had on the crew and their actions. But given the nature of this event, don’t be surprised to have new restrictions on further civilian ‘ride alongs’.
Civilians have been common aboard naval vessels from the word ‘go’. There will be civilians on naval vessels after this. The only formal restrictions that will be placed will be additional guidance on what evolutions they can participate in, and how many can be in certain places during critical evolutions.
The Skipper of the Greenville screwed up badly in failing to exercise good judgement, and losing positive control of the Control Room during a dangerous evolution. The sailor whom was supposed to be working the Control Tracking Plot (or ‘Plotting Dots’) screwed up enourmously by not: 1) Asking the civilians to move out of his way; 2) Informing the OOD that he was no longer plotting contacts; 3)Hi Opal!
This constitutes Dereliction of duty and Hazarding a Vessel under the UCMJ. SERIOUS bad juju. However, in the end, it was the OOD’s responsibility to maintain positive control over Control, and the Skipper’s responsibility to ensure his watchstanders did their jobs correctly.
Civilian ride-alongs are too deeply ingrained in the Nav’s need to keep the civilian world aware of what the Nav does, reward Navy Boosters, and maintain the morale of Navy families, for them to be stopped. What you will, without any doubt, see, is greater reluctance to conduct interesting evolutions with civilians aboard, reducing Tiger Cruises and Public Affairs trips to mere excursions, and rather boring ones, at that.
Before reading your posts and more on the collision, I thought that this inclusion of so many civilians on a sub was a peculiar and isolated event. It didn’t occur to me there would be enough room for more than a couple of passengers on any sub other than the Red October. Tranquilis, you sound like you speak from experience; have you served on submarines?
Has anybody actually proven any link, however tenuous, between this Texas oilman and the Bush Dynasty?
Drudge et al have been strangely mum about this thing. You know that if the accident had happened before mid-January involving, say, a Hollywood producer-type rather than the oil guy that the scandal mongers on the right would have shit the proverbial brick.
again. just exactly what do you think it would prove, even if true?
Could the President (whoever it is at any time) specifically make sure his best bud from day care got a ride on a sub? sure. What would this prove? nothing. If said friend were on the sub in question? it still would prove nothing.
haven’t the last 8 years of continual ‘ohhhhhh, I see his little fingers in this pie, therefore there must be something worth investigating’ taught us anything???
sheesh. and I didn’t even ** vote** for Bush.
pugluvr, what Tranquilis stated is correct. It is not uncommon for civilians to spend some time on a US naval vessel while it is under steam. I got to spend five days on the USS Constellation as part of a ‘Tiger Cruise’ when my brothers wing was returning from deployment. I think about 500 other civilians were also aboard at the time. Tiger Cruise participants are limited to family members of seamen who are on their first deployment I believe, which is one way to make sure everyone gets a chance, and also one more reason why there weren’t more civies aboard the sub I’m sure.
I understand what you’re saying; I guess my question waa essentially rhetorical. Around here, it isn’t front page news. Hell, we just had an AM talk show host fired for referring to the Japanese as “little yellow monkeys.”* We get in-depth coverage of Pardongate, or whatever they’re calling it, and one story about the Greenville buried in the back of the section.
I probably should have saved it for GD or the Pit.
[sub]*J.R. Gach. Hey Albany: you can keep him![/sub]
sorry, I over reacted, too. The OP is a legitimate question (without the dramatic background music). Were there civilians associated w/Bush on the sub. So far, we have a list of names, some of which are from TX, and the statement that it’s routine to allow family members of crew members to visit at least once. So, these folks may either be family members or (cue music) Friends of dignataries…
(nah, leave out the music)
I’ve seen one report that the civilians on the Greeneville were major contributors or organizers of the effort to set up the battleship USS Missouri as a museum in Pearl Harbor. If the Navy routinely does these goodwill trips (which came as a surprise to me), that seems to be a good enough reason for one.
I’m sorry I don’t have the guys name right off hand. But, the guy immediately responsible for getting the civilians on board was the guy who had to resign as the head guy in the South Pacific after he made a comment that US soldiers should have just hired a prostitute instead of raping an 11-year old Japanese girl on Okinawa. That’s yet another reason why the Japanese are pretty pissed.
I also heard about the civilians being contributors to the USS Missouri fund. I think that’s the direct link, but it’s possible some of them also contributed to Bush.
15 years. Reactor operator, submarine repair, and associated billits. Oh, and speaking of Red October, if you look carefully, you’ll get about 10 seconds of the back of my head in one of the Control Room scenes. Two of my buddies have speaking roles.
By way of showing how long civilians have been part of the naval scene:
The old phrase ‘show a leg’ comes from the call a ship’s Bo’sun would give in the morning, to wake the crew. By literally showing a leg, the person sleeping in a hamock would let the bo’sun know that they were a man or a woman, so he’d know how to hassle, and who to let be.