I mean it sounds like they aren’t able to pass the test so they aren’t teaching children. System seems to work fine.
That’s one of the reasons many kids end up hating math, they had elementary school teachers who weren’t able to offer alternative ways of explaining the basics, because they didn’t understand them themselves. Or they mistakenly think “I get why you think it’s hard, I didn’t understand it either” is helpful encouragement for a middle schooler.
The reason it’s not a national scandal is that it’s how things are and have been for decades, and the solution would be to pay people who understand math enough to go in and specifically teach math in elementary school. And the people who have all the money today don’t want to pay for that.
Conversely, it can be just as difficult when you have a teacher that doesn’t understand how a child may not immediately grasp a concept. For some reason, my school decided I should skip pre-Algebra and tossed me straight into Algebra. I went from a pretty good student in math to an utter failure because I had no idea what I was doing and I had a teacher that wouldn’t not assist me in understanding the concepts. To this day, most conceptual math is beyond my ability.
When I was in college - to become a teacher, funnily enough - I spent a semester tutoring incoming freshmen in English. This was a fairly rigorous private college, yet some of the students did not have a grasp of basic grammar, couldn’t string together a cohesive sentence, or apply critical thinking / interpretation to any reading. I ended up working with one of those students in my current place of employment and it is fair to say she never really learned how to write effectively, yet she did graduate college.
I think basic skills are necessary; however, in an elementary school setting, it’s more important for a teacher to know how to educate using a variety of methods to reach a variety of student than whether the teacher know Calculus. Secondary education is a whole other world. The teacher must show subject mastery in order to be effective along with being able to communicate the concepts.
Indeed. Which is probably a contributing factor to the analysis result for “eliminating bad teachers” from NC I quoted above. To reiterate: Changing the pass/fail line for the certification test would eliminate 0.1% of bad teachers, and 7% of teachers defined as “effective”. Now this could be because the tests are simply flawed, but another factor is that you can’t make a simple test for “Is able to put themselves in the student’s place and adapt their teaching approach”. In math you can’t get by on that alone, but it is still important if you are to reach all of your students.
Straight up this is one of the hardest parts of teaching math for me. I really enjoy finding patterns in math and I get nerdball excited by it and it’s easy for me in a math lesson to be like, “Okay, I know we’re not supposed to be talking about perfect squares yet, but let me show you this beautiful tile pattern and how it connects to what we’re learning about multiplication, and how does that relate to prime numbers…” There’s so much cool stuff I want to share. Problem is, the kids who are struggling with multiplication decidedly don’t need me to be going off on tangents about perfect squares, and they can easily tune out. I have to figure out where their struggle is and meet them there, in their zone of proximal development.
Often teachers who themselves found math a difficult subject find this process easier than I do: where I can spot the pattern in numbers, they can spot the sticking point in students.
Yeah, but this is kind of a straw man: I haven’t seen anybody in this thread talking about math at anywhere near the Calculus level.
There are millions of retired engineers, scientists, and others who know math very well and would love some part-time work teaching math and science. They can’t, because the teacher’s unions have a monopoly and won’t allow it. Some of them teach on youtube or make courses at Coursera or other places, but they are shut out of teaching in schools unless they go back and get an education degree, and even then the chance of getting a teaching job as an old person is slim. So we don’t do it and all that experience and education goes to waste.
Cite? I know lots of retired or semi-retired engineers and mathematicians. A very small number have gone into teaching because they were interested and they were burnt out on tech work. Some made it as teachers, most didn’t. But the bulk of folks with that type of experience don’t seem particularly interested.
And it’s not especially difficult to transition into a teaching role. There aren’t too many hurdles to clear before you’re allowed in the classroom. There are programs specifically designed to help people along that path.
IOW, I think you’re whole point here is BS.
I agree: “some part-time work teaching math and science” sounds like a gig as an adjunct instructor at a college, which shouldn’t be hard to find.
“They’re shut out by unions” is one theory.
“Putting out YouTube videos is one (awesome) thing, but retired scientists and engineers don’t want to deal with classroom management” is another.
“Bad teachers”? Do you think that the teachers are failing this test?
It is to laugh.
I think that most of them don’t go into teaching because starting from scratch at 55 is not easy, and the teaching profession is very hard to break into. Many are probably like me - someone who would love to teach but won’t jump through years of hoops to do it,
But for evidence I would cite junior colleges, which hire instructors from the ranks or working people and semi-retired people. My first post-secondary education was in engineering technology, and every single one of my instructors was someone out of industry, not someone with a teaching certificate. They were the best teachers I ever had, because they knew their stuff and were enthused about the material.
And they could always give us practical examples for why we needed what they were teaching, because they experienced them in real life.
I’ve also been told, and maybe some teachers here can verify or correct this, that modern education programs are going light on the actual pedagogy and are more focused on teaching higher theories of education, as if the students were going on to get Ph.D’s in education rather than going out to teach kids. Any truth to that?
No, but apparently quite a few teachers needed multiple attempts at the exam to pass it.
Also, some people are trying to get the test removed or watered down because they claim it’s somehow racist.
No, there’s little if any truth to that.
What are the requirements for becoming a teacher that you consider unreasonable? Do you think there’s no percentage of these retirees with great math skills who wouldn’t be deluded about their ability to deal with all the elements of teaching that aren’t “explain math to other math knowledgeable people”?
In Norway it’s a year long university program for someone with a bachelor or masters to qualify to teach 13-19 year olds in their subject areas, it includes basic education theory and classroom practice. It’s not required to get a job though, you can take it part time after getting a teaching job.
I’m not mentioning this as a “so what you mention can’t be a problem in the US”, I realize there may be jurisdictions lacking any similar paths, but I’ve worked with a number of teachers on that path, some of them with an MSc and years of experience in occupations with a lot of actual math, and though some of them took to the classroom like fish to water, others struggled, and even with the help and guidance of the program got failing marks when doing a lesson in front of evaluators.
With all due respect, teaching a room full of junior college young adults, who all presumably want to be there, is a very, VERY different ballgame than teaching schoolchildren.
My wife is a teacher, currently getting her admin credential. It’s a 1 year program with 3 “quarters” (the school teaches 4 a year, but she will be done with the credential in 3). She is currently in one class (out of 3 this quarter) that she has said is too “theoretical”. That’s the first time that’s been the case, and she has a master’s degree in education (bachelor’s in science, which is what she teaches) - so she’s been through all the courses you can shake a stick at.
I don’t know where you get your information, but it’s incorrect.
Just checking, is that directed to Sam or me?
Sorry, I quoted you to back you up with evidence, but that sentence was directed at @Sam_Stone
Oh, and the one class that’s too theoretical isn’t some “woke” class - it’s “entrepreneurship”, which she said had some very interesting info but nothing that would really be applicable to being a school administrator.
To be fair, the person who told me that was in a Canadian B.Ed program. Maybe it’s different? Or maybe there are different steams for those going on to a Ph.D than those who just want to go out and teach?
Not making any claims here. Just trying to understand the lay of the land.