What's so bad about Nude Dancing Clubs?

Great Debates
1

I’m sorry but I don’t get it. Somebody explain this to me. There’s another story in the news about challenges to the First Amendment, this time concerning a nude dancing club in Alabama.

http://sns.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/sns-nudity.story?coll=sns-newsnation-headlines

[this link will probably change, so don’t be surprised if you can’t get there from here] [sigh]

Question: are there any actual statistics that bear this out? Or is it just, “Well, everybody knows…”

I’ve heard all the arguments–“it’s demeaning to women”, “it causes increased crime”, “it sets a bad example for kids”–and I’m sorry but I don’t buy it. Nobody’s making those women take their clothes off for money. Women overall, worldwide, are not necessarily going to suddenly have their quality of life improved, or suddenly start getting more respect, if we outlaw “women taking their clothes off for money”.

They don’t necessarily “make it harder for the rest of us”. If you’re a career woman in a business meeting with a guy, just because he spent last Saturday night watching women take their clothes off for money doesn’t mean that he’s going to treat you, the business woman, as though he thought you were a stripper, too. It doesn’t necessarily follow. I suppose there are some clueless guys out there who do, but I think the vast majority of businessmen are perfectly capable of distinguishing between Candy Floss the stripper and Ms. Forbes 500.

And are there any statistics, surveys and things, that say, “Yeah, it’s true, guys never look at women the same way after they’ve spent time watching other women take off their clothes for money”?

I don’t see anything in the Bible that says a woman can’t take her clothes off for money. Sure, it’s immodest, and incites lust in men, but so is wearing a thong on the beach, and AFAIK that’s still legal.

I think we need to separate “what’s the right thing to do” from “what’s the legal thing to do”. I disapprove of women taking their clothes off for money, but I think they should have the legal right to do so.

And as for the “bad example” argument: Kids all eventually learn that “some women do bad things” in communities without topless bars, so what difference does it make if there’s one out in the boondocks or not?

Are there any actual statistics that prove that nude bars cause any more crime than mere drinking bars?

Or is it just the NIMBY syndrome again, kicking in down 'Bama way?

P.S. Question: is there a technical difference between a “topless bar”, a “strip joint”, and a “nude dancing club”?

2

I’m with you, DDG. However, in the interest of playing Devil’s Advocate, I will tell you that you’re going to get an argument with the statement above. While no one MAKES beautiful women take their clothes of for money, they do realize at some point that they can’t make the same money doing something “moral.” And that same someone is going to point out to you that the same is not true of men. Women who do this DO have a choice…but it can also be argued that the money involved, as compared to the money involved in being a secretary, makes the choice moot. It’s like…the MAN…is getting them DOWN, man.

But as I said, I’m actually with you on this. And I’ve never understood why a woman using her sexuality or beauty for financial gain is a BAD thing. I mean, the woman who chooses two hours a night of showing off her gorgeous breasts is not necessarily an idiot when compared to the woman who slaves away all day for petty wages (please note, I’m not saying EITHER of them is an idiot…just making a point).

Women being openly sexual is NOT evil. I mean, women ARE sexual creatures. Forcing them to keep their clothes ON can be seen as just as much of a “freedom of expression” argument as can “forcing” them to remove their clothing. Removing one of the only options for a women in a certain position to make a decent living is a shitty idea. In my opinion, it’s sort of like first forcing them into it and then pulling the rug out from under them.

Like you, I see no way that this is harmful to the population in general when it’s carefully regulated for drugs and prostitution. Men who frequent these establishments will look elsewhere to get their thrills, and anyone who thinks that closing the business will find them at home with their wife and kids has another thing coming.

-L

3

And whoever makes this argument will be an idiot. Men with the same level of education and experience as your average stripper generally cannot make the same amount of money doing something “moral”. The money these women make at a good club is extraordinary - $1000 a night, mostly in cash, is not all that unusual. Men are the people being discriminated against here. Even assuming male strippers can make the same amount of money, there are nowhere near as many male strip joints as female strip joints.
Equality for all, I say!! Women/gay men, start patronizing strip joints! Create a market for male strippers! Lobby to get one to move into your neighborhood!!

Anyhow, as for the OP - I’m really quite surprised. Having gone to a strip club last night, I am fully aware that woman are brainless automatons who exist only to thrust their bare breasts at me. It’s amazing that a woman like DDG could write such an intelligent OP.

Sua

P.S. AFAIK, at a “topless club”, the dancers keep their panties on. I think “strip joint” is a generic term covering all places where dancers take off their clothing. My WAG about “nude dancing club”: Some towns have laws that require certain types of establishments be “members only” - for example, places which serve alcohol after last call (which IRC is around 1:30 A.M.). Perhaps this covers strip joints in some places, hence “nude dancing club”. My experience with after-hours places is that the members-only policy is a joke; you can usually purchase a one night membership for the cost of a typical cover charge.

4

Personally, I see nothing wrong with them from a moral standpoint. Most of these arguments are a result of the bizarre attitude we have about sex (or anything) in America (i.e. We are afraid to teach kids about condoms because we think it will inspire them to have sex. We object to too much sex on TV but not too much violence)

Don’t forget, you are also talking about Alabama.

Hmm…Maybe that’s why I keep getting yelled at for stuffing dollar bills down my bosses pants.:frowning:

It’s not just a Southern thing. I like stripclubs and bars. I also like rollar coasters. I just don’t want to live next door to one. There is no question that strip clubs are load, attract a lot of traffic and drive down property values. It’s like living next door to a trendy nightclub. Most people don’t want loud, drunk people (most of who live in another town) walking through the neighborhood screaming and vomiting at 2:00am.

Of course, there are also a lot of really uptight people out there who object to anything that is “fun”.

In any case, I see nothing wrong with putting one of those stripclubs in industrially or commercially zoned areas where no one lives.

I’m not sure about the actual names, but there are:

all nude bars - Clubs where the girls dance totally naked.

topless bars - Clubs where the girls have to wear bikini bottoms

gogo bars - where the chicks wear both bikini tops and bottoms

The type of bar and whether or not alchohol can be served or brought in depends on local statues.

5

It’s a bit unclear whether this thread is about objections to attending strip clubs or objections to having them around. I don’t propose to debate the former. But regarding the latter, I would comment that - from the perspective of someone who regards it as morally wrong to attend a strip club - saying “why does it bother you if its around - just don’t go in” is parallel to saying “why does it bother you if the guy is selling crack on your street corner - just don’t buy it”. This is not to say that such arguments necessarily pass constitutional muster. But this is the reason for the objections to such institutions, and it is a reasonable one.

6

Interesting subject. I’ll start at the end of the OP and work backwards.

Hard to answer because local regulations differ. Overall, the main distinction is whether the dancers are allowed to display their genitals or not. In many locations, topless bars tend to have liquor licences, whereas nude dancing clubs are more likely to be BYOB. There is a further and probably more important distinction over whether touching of the dancers is permitted, and to what extent; again this is highly subject to local regulations.

Most of my experience with such things dates from Houston in the '80’s. At topless bars, lap or couch dancing was available, performed in the public areas with offical policy being either no or limited (extremities only) touching of the dancer.

Nude clubs were dance-only in the public areas, but a private area was provided to which individual customers and dancers could retire. It was generally assumed that Houston nude clubs were fronts for prostitution, but I never tested this.

I know of no such stats. My anecdotal experience, again mainly in Houston, is that higher crime rates than around conventional bars were unlikely around topless establishments, as they generally were rather strictly run and employed abundant security staff. I certainly saw no evidence that, say, drug trafficing or fights were more prevalent, expecially considering how rowdy the bar scene ther was in general. I was propositioned a few times at these clubs, but this was always an independent initiative by the dancer, for an off-site meeting at another time, and I was propositioned several times in and around conventional bars as well.

While the possibility of price-gouging of the customers certainly exists, these places mostly were up front about costs. IOW, no ‘surprises’ such as the $300 bottle of champagne that clubs in cities such as Paris are notorious for.

Nude bars might have been another story; they tended to be in seedier areas, and supposedly rip-offs inside were much more likely, although I have no personal experience of such.

As for the ‘morality’ of nude dancing; IMO it is not a problem if the establishment follows local legal requirements and both the dancer and customer are clear-headed about just what sort of transaction is going on. I personally feel that mutual expressions of sexuality is perfectly normal, and certainly acceptable when in a non-public consensual setting such as a club.

I feel I must add that in practice, however, I am generally uncomfortable with deceit; most dancers are in some way obligated to at least hint that more sexual contact will be provided than is actually the case, and IMO many men are kidding themselves that anything is going on other than that a dancer is displaying her body, in timed increments, for money. The main problem, therefore, is how this implied deception may affect both the customers and dancers, but I can’t see that this is something that should require legislation to prevent.

In any event, community objections to such clubs, IMO, have nothing to do with the above but stem from three considerations: a) religion-based injunctions condemning overt sexual display or contact outside of marriage, regardless of whether this occurs in a private, consensual setting; b) the assumption (proven or not) that any sexual contact for money tends to associate with other types of crime; c) economic considerations such as loss of potential loss of property values for homes and businesses in the vincinity of such establishments.

While I personally have no problem with such clubs, if specific local communities do not wish to have them, so be it. I would resist, however, arguments that all such establishments should be banned on the grounds of one specific social group’s moral stance, or based on unsupported claims of increased crime.

7

I think its conceivable that if you zone a bunch of them into one area it could encourage street prostitution which brings pimps and drug dealers. It certainly isn’t an inevitable result but I could see it being a factor in a vulnerable neighborhoods decline. But then so could an old style beerhall without strippers.

Some conservatives’ love of the freedom to contract tends to fall apart when sex is involved. They envision women lured by money into a job that makes them hate themselves. They sure don’t want their daughters tempted into such a job.

But, imagine the 20 year old who has worked in a relatively tame club for a year or two and has financial commitments based on an income she couldn’t get elsewhere. The manager comes in with a big grin waving a newspaper and announces that the courts have struck down all restrictions on exotic dancing so next week they will all be doing couch dancing. I know its a big bad world but that makes me a bit uncomfortable too.

8

Count me in among the “I don’t really care” crowd, despite that I was born and bred and live in the midst of the Bible Belt in the South. (Some of the automatic assumptions I’m reading here which imply that Southerners are automatically backwards, however, get on my nerves.)

As msmith537 said, I find them much less offensive if they stick to industrial and commercial areas.

And one more request: Could they please stop including “Dolls” in the name? (Dockside Dolls and Thee Doll House are big ones locally.) One of my walking buddies was complaining just this morning that every time she drives down the interstate with her 6 year old daughter, her daughter wants to stop off at “Dockside Dolls” — she’s under the impression that it must be an outlet store for Barbies…

9

Two comments: I am generally surprized that many of the crusaders against these establishments do so on the basis that they are “degrading to women”. I thought a tenet of 'equal rights" should be that a woman should have control over her own body-if this is so, why all the fuss/
My big beef with them is that they are in the business of “SEXUALLY EXPLOITING HELPLESS MEN”.
Think about it-men are tricked into dropping huge sums of money at these places-for overpriced beer, champagne, etc., based upon the promis of sex. This is immoral, and should be condemned.

10

Let me offer this with a mea culpa.

Several years ago I was working in downtown DC. At the intersection of New York Ave and 11th. In walking distance from my office was several strip bars. It became a habit (for a period of time) for me to go out to one for lunch, grab a sandwich (reasonably priced) and watch and tip the girls.

I’ll tell you this…I noticed (after a while) that I could no longer pass a woman on the street (or in my office) without wondering what she’d be like up on stage, naked. I don’t think it affected my behavior towards the women I knew (but how am I to really know? None of them mentioned it.) but it certainly started getting to my attitude toward women.

Now look, I know (and I think we all do) that, to a certain extent, straight guys are going to look at attractive women with a speculative eye. But this was more than that, this colored how I was perceiving the women around me. And it was to the point where it was becoming a distraction for me in my work and social life.

In response to that, I stopped going. Back to the chinese restaurant for me!

But it still weirds me out how I was affected by that experience.

So here’s hoping the women on the board don’t think less of me after my confession.

11

I can walk five or six blocks from my house, and there are guys on the corner selling crack. I don’t buy any, and I don’t care that they’re doing it. I would agree there are some parallels in that both are about people trying to impose their morality on others.

12

As a former stripper who worked both in a club as the lead dancer and on my own doing parties, it still amazes me why there is an issue with strip clubs. There were several good comments made here already. Yes, if anyone was getting exploited, it was the men (and the occasional woman), however, that’s arguable as anyone coming in knew exactly what the costs were, and in the club I danced in, there were no hidden charges. The girls were not “employees” and as such, danced on nights that they wanted to, and did not get paid by the club. We danced for tips only, and that was posted all through the club. We wore our own costumes, decided on songs, etc. We were not “made” to do anything. The club only served beer, which at the time cost $2.00 a bottle, no minimums, no cover charge. As far as the “it degrades women” crap… I’ve always felt that any woman who feels degraded by something that I do, has a personal problem. It’s not my responsibility to make people feel any certain way about themselves. That’s their own choice. If they feel that my dancing made them a sex object, then #1, they aren’t, never were and never will be (a woman thing, yanno, how any girl coming into a room with a lower cut dress is automatically a bitch or slut…yeah, I do it too sometimes), or #2, they were being looked at that way long before I ever got on a stage, but now it’s MY fault that men find them sexy… gee willakers, so sorry. I actually received more respect from people on the street who knew and/or recognized me on the street AFTER I started dancing (with exception of the “Christians” and the occasional freak who was infatuated). I even had women ask me to teach them how to dance “sexy” so they could do it at home, which I did whenever possible. Another argument, “it makes husbands neglect their wives in favor of the club”, <ahem> If your mate sees greener grass over the fence, it’s time to water your own lawn, not pour weed killer on the other yard. About the young girl caught up in the lifestyle by money scenario that was mentioned above. Well, welcome to the real world where getting laid off, fired, etc (for not going along with the program)… forces you to learn how to live a new lifestyle with less income. It increases crime? Well, my city didn’t have a club until ours started. In the years in operated until it closed, there was NO change in ANY crime rates before or afterward. As far as inside the club, we had ONE incident that could be termed an “almost fight”, over a game of pool of all things. To compare, the other three bars in town each generally had at least one fight every weekend. I find it hard to believe that there are no fights happening in nice ole honkytonks in Alabama that don’t have dancing girls. As far as my own self esteem, dancing only improved it. Just like in acting, I was the one in control during every dance. I had the power to make the audience feel however I wanted them to, not the other way around. As far as private parties in homes, I always had security with me, and we were always asked to stay and enjoy the rest of the party after my show, and we were, without exception, treated no differently than anyone else there…well, maybe a little better, but definitely never worse. About the location of clubs? I do agree that they shouldn’t be next to a school or a Toys-R-Us, but there’s no reason it should have to be out in the boonies. It’s like people who move in next to airports and then bitch about the noise. If it was there before you were, shut the hell up. If it wants to come into your community, then call a town meeting and vote on it. Those are my thoughts, as someone from the inside.

Yeah yeah… go ahead and lose all respect for me and flame away at the SLUT now… :smiley:

13

Tequila, to get flamed you first must use paragraphs so people can read it to flame you :smiley:

14

Unfortunately for pro-dance clubbers, there is a cite that proves reducing dance clubs in an area reduces crime. New York City’s Times Square used to have some of the most crime-ridden blocks. At the time those same blocks were teeming with adult theaters, peep shows, and strip joints. Giuliani successfully had a law passed that restricted adult establishments to more than 500 feet away from any school or church, and 500 feet away from each other. In a few years, the entire Times Square gradually became DisneyMall. As a result, crime went down dramatically at the Times Square area. Of course as a result, everyone who wants to ban porn establishments everywhere else can point to NYC as justication of their beliefs.

15

Isn’t the simple answer to the OP simply, “Nude dancing clubs are bad because they offend the sensibilities of conservative fundamentalists, so there nyahh?”

(Never mind that IMO, most male conservative fundamentalists would venture into a nudie club anyway if they knew they could get away with it without being discovered…)

16

I will agree that crime was reduced in that area of NYC after that law, but I will also ask “what else was done besides/in conjuction with that law”? It depends on the area.

(Using paragraphs just for Asmodean) :smiley:

According to a few friends of mine who are Vegas cops, they have very few problems in and around the strip clubs there. The problems are in many of the regular bars. Same in many areas of San Diego, but then again, the neighborhoods that are rather seedy to begin with that happen to have strip clubs have a lot of problems.

Is the problem the strip clubs? Never having been in NYC, I'll say that perhaps it may contributed, but in the areas I'm familiar with, there is no correlation that I am aware of between crime and strip clubs. Unless you pick a certain neighborhood or area, there's not much of an argument.

In short, I can take you to neighborhoods with lots of strip clubs and nearly no crime, and areas with no strip clubs that are hotbeds of crime, and intermix them all you want. It's about the area, not the establishments. Just for one example, there are parts in East L.A. areas that have no strip clubs, lots of convenience stores, and are crime ridden. Does that mean that criminals hang out around convenience stores? Nope.
17

Tequila, once again proving why I am infatuated…

I think it’s just a matter of folks trying to legislate morality… it’s going to happen as long as American culture remains sick.

And, FTR, I love taking my wife to “Juice Bars” (so called because they can’t sell booze, as the dancers get totally naked, and naked private dances are available). Tons of fun. She prefers female strippers to male… happy me!

so… Tequila… if I send a plane ticket, will you teach my wife how to dance sexy? :smiley:

18

Well, according to the billboard a couple blocks from our Deja Vu, “Pornography victimizes women and children.”

So it must be true.

19

I don’t know about you, but this sounds like every job I’ve ever had.

And I don’t even have to strip.
Keep in mind that most of these people who are opposed to strip clubs have never been in one. For years, my girlfriend would get mad at me when I would go. I think she thought they were akin to a brothel or whore house.

Then we watched that ‘G-String Divas’ documentary on HBO about strippers. She saw it was just a bunch of hot chicks using their hotness to manipulate dumb-asses like me to give them money. Now she wants to own a strip club.

20

That is about as far from parallel as you can get.

Crack is an illicit and addictive narcotic that kills the people foolish enough to use it. Last time I checked, no one ever died from entering a strip club.

Furthermore, a strip club on the corner does not necessarily mean that the surrounding area is crime ridden or even a bad part of town. However, any street corner that a crack dealer feels comfortable enough to sell from, you can bet has more than it’s fair share of crime and criminal elements.