Yes, I really do believe that. The whole “men’s rights movement” is merely sexism disguised as an equal rights campaign. I’m not saying there aren’t issues out there about men being discriminated in certain areas. I’m saying that this particular group is not focusing on legitimate issues like child custody, spousal abuse, or discrimination in divorces.
While it was exaggerated, I gotta say, it kinda reminded me of my father. He’s not a slob, but he is, how should I put it, “housework impaired”.
Damn time limits!
I am happy you got out of that situation, and I think it’s disgusting when people excuse abuse against men, or laugh it off because you know, obviously a woman is incapable of truly hurting a man. It’s wrong when a man abuses a woman, and it’s wrong when a woman does it. I’m glad to hear you’re doing better now.
I’d like to ask why posters here are making the claim that all MRM are misogynists while, at the same time, advocating that we not identify all feminists as the same. That just sounds hypocritical. One poster commented that MRMs are typically not concerned with reasonable issues like child support and child custody, but I disagree. These are typically talking points MRM activists like Paul Elam have used while being interviewed by news organizations: Paul Elam of A Voice for Men on ABC 20/20 discussing Men's Human Rights - YouTube
Both feminists and men’s rights activists bring up valid contentions concerning the discrepancies between the way our society treats genders. The problem with both groups, but one feminists tend to get less criticism for, is filtering information due to their particular bias in favor of their own sex. This causes them to be correct when identifying particular issues, but be completely off base when interpreting general principles behind said issues. Men’s right’s activists see men’s right’s issues, but not feminist issues, and vice versa, and then form theories, like patriarchy and matriarchy, to explain them. This causes both groups to be inherently sexist in their beliefs.
The reason feminists tend to get more leeway is due to historical feminism’s acceptance into our society. Historical feminism correctly identified inconsistencies in equality, like between men having the right to vote and not women, but because feminism was only focused with a bias towards women’s unfavorable issues; Their interpretations were also biased. Because of this; Issues, like only men being applicable for draft, were not identified and taken into account when forming beliefs and opinions over inequalities. This led to the rise of the Men’s Rights Movement that only advocate for men’s rights. They might believe in gender equality, but due to their initial bias, they wouldn’t be able to see any inequality outside of their own.
This cycle of one biased group forming to counter another group’s bias was doomed from the start; As if MRM and it’s bias were accepted into our society we would discard issues affecting women. This would cause another backlash just as when feminism inspired the Men’s Rights Movement. One solution I see to this is for an egalitarian ideology to overpower both groups, but I couldn’t find much in the way of activism for egalitarianism when I searched for it, so if they’re out there; They aren’t near as loud as their “half right” counterparts. All I found were feminists who wanted to adopt the label while still apparently being women focused. This may be a step in the right direction since people aren’t typically inclined to activism that doesn’t exclusively advocate for their interest (except in analyzing cases like Dr. Martin Luther King’s message of racial equality as opposed to some of his more racially centered contemporaries in the struggle for civil rights). What do you guys think; If groups like MRM and feminists adopted the label of egalitarians would their focus have to change at all to avoid confusion, or do you think it would be like changing the label on a jar of shit? Or, do you guys just think I’m a sexist asshole? :dubious:
I started this thread because I had just learned of all the controversy that seems to happen in the atheist community recently. Since then, I’ve done more “research”, and I’m still confused as to where I stand.
I’m either both a feminist and an MRA, or neither. It seems like our interests overlap in some respects, but people are too focused on who to blame, rather than educating and correcting people. Men are often portrayed as idiots on TV, but who most likely wrote for those commercial and sitcoms? Who most likely made the rules concerning child custody battles? Who cares?
I wish we could all work together.
My advice; Be neither.
I really think feminists fucked it all up back in the 20th century. They started with positive, albeit selfish, intentions, but any social movement that’s created to address one groups inequality is going to fail at addressing actual inequality. After a few decades of only looking at women’s issues; Feminists started feeling more oppressed. Just compare classical feminists message, who had less rights, with the angry tone you see in modern feminism. Now women are typically seen as the oppressed. MRM, feminism’s bastard child movement, with the same self-centeredness and vitriol of it’s parent, is rightfully mocked, but it’s no different than feminism.
I really don’t think we’re any closer to gender egalitarianism than in the 1900s. Any talk of men’s rights is seen as misogynistic, and any movement addressing men’s rights is going to be sexist in nature.
I say be an egalitarianist.
funnily enough; This board doesn’t recognize the word.
Historically, feminists have actually been the “egalitarians” (not sure if that’s the right word) you speak of – feminists have fought for things like equal treatment in child-custody cases.
The main difference is that most of the MRM is bullshit. Most of their issues are nonsense, factually (child custody is one of the few legitimate ones, but the feminists are on that one). Further, most prominent MRM bloggers/advocates that I know of have made a series of misogynist comments. Society really has been tilted towards men, in most ways. Women really often are blamed for rape, and rapists are often excused. Getting falsely accused of rape, while very bad, is not nearly as bad as being raped, nor is it nearly as common.
Probably because the word is egalitarian.
Are women REALLY blamed for rape, and rapists excused?? I mean, I don’t know much about anything, but that seems like it’s incorrect, (or worded poorly). Rape is horrible, which brings me to my next problem with your statement; I’ve BEEN accused of trying to rape someone myself… as I stated earlier. It wasn’t something that the woman was going to bring to the authorities, but just knowing that SHE thought I was going to rape her was bad enough. It messed me up!! No one wants to be accused of rape!
Is it as bad as rape? I don’t know, but it’s super sh*tty!! It’s just unfathomable how much it effects a person inside. Even if it’s not common, that makes it worse for the accused, because when it does happen, NO ONE is going to take the side of the accused rapist. You have to LIVE with that tittle.
By the way, it’s post #49 where I mention it. I didn’t tell the whole story, but it made me sick to think that someone though that I was trying to rape her.
What’s the worst thing you can call a person? It’s not the “C word”, it’s not the “F word”… it’s a “rapist”. I think I would rather be called a “murderer” than a “rapist”. It’s not a word you play around with!
That’s why I hate this “Rape Culture” label… Yes, I understand that it’s definition exists… and I think it’s wrong. I just hate the label.
When someone asks “what are you wearing”, or says “you shouldn’t have worn that”, or asks “why were you out so late”, or “why did you get so drunk around him”, or something similar, they’re blaming the victim and excusing the rapist.
Of course it’s bad, and of course no one wants to be accused of rape. But it’s nowhere near as bad as actually being raped, nor is it nearly as common.
I agree that women shouldn’t be asked that, but is it really that common these days??? I’m asking, not trying to be a jerk.
As far as your other comment, I’ve never been raped. I guess it would be worse. But the WORST thing you can be accused of, IMHO, IS rape.
No, it’s not. Unless you’re a man who is raped, in which case get ready to be told how lucky you are or how much of a fag you are for objecting.
Yes, it is. Very.
The first thing we do as human beings when something horrible happens to someone else is try to invoke the magic. YOU must have done something wrong. We don’t like to believe that sometimes bad things happen - even when you did nothing to bring it on yourselves. With some things (like rape, lung cancer, infertility) the responses are so ingrained that its rather embarrassing. (rape - you dressed provocatively, drank around someone who shouldn’t be trusted, were in a dark alley at night; lung cancer - of course you smoked don’t deny it: infertility - just relax, its stress).
As a reference; I have been raped - years ago now. And when I bring it up with most people they want to know what I did wrong. (Went to my bosses house to help with a computer problem - which was my job).
Yes, it’s quite common.
I agree that that’s messed up.
Here are some more links about victim blaming, and how common it is, for rape.
When rape goes to trial, it’s particularly common for the defense attorney to blame the victim.
I’m sorry to hear that Dangerosa.
All of my female relatives (that I’ve discussed this with – five total) have either been raped or sexually assaulted at some point in their lives. One of the most common types of sexual assault is being held down in a sexual way when one doesn’t want to be. Even if it’s brief, as minor as that sounds, it can be traumatic.
Can you explain this further? Held how? Are they already engaged in sex, or sexual behavior?
FTR; I’ve known FAR too many women who have been sexually assaulted too. I have to admit, I sometimes forget about how many women are victimized.
Shame on anyone who makes false accusations though. They hurt everyone, not just the accused.
For some, I don’t know the exact details. In one case they were kissing on a sofa and he got on top of her, kissing and groping her, and didn’t let her up for a minute or two even though she was struggling and saying no.
Of course. But this is a miniscule problem in relation to actual rape and sexual assault.