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- You can if you want, if you can pick me out of a crowd of normal people. I’m the guy not dressed like Marlyn Manson.
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- You can if you want, if you can pick me out of a crowd of normal people. I’m the guy not dressed like Marlyn Manson.
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So, remind me again – just what are these “normal” people of which you speak?
I think “normal” means boring, average, non-offensive. It means conformity. It means not standing out from the crowd. Hey, normal isn’t necessarily a good thing, its just the lowest common denominator.
DougC why do you wear the clothes you chose to wear?
We’ll assume for now that during work you wear the clothes deemed appropriate by your employers, but at other times?
Ooohh, Goths.
Elvira, Morticia Addams, Lilly Munster.
Black Leather and White lace, pewter and silver jewelry, add a long cigarette holder, “because you worship death.”
Mmmmmm.
Quick Question that may be off topic
Why are Goths called Goths? Wasn’t Gothic and arctectural or Artistic style? How did it become associated with a certain fashion sense/ lifestyle?
Trying to narrow down why I don’t tend to think much of goths as a group. I’m not siding with the “make-up is bad” guy, exactly, but the attitude of many goths seems to be one of superiority, for something that doesn’t deserve (in my mind) all that much congratulations. Some of the posts in this thread imply that goths are in general more intelligent or thoughtful than others. I find that questionable.
I wear the clothes I wear because they’re comfortable. Some are related to shows or comics I like, although none of them have clothing company labels on them. I have a hair band that has large yellow ‘petals’ sticking out, designed to make my head look like a daisy, and sometimes I wear that if I feel quirky. I either wear no makeup or green and blue makeup because I like it. I don’t know if anyone else has this style, but I don’t think I’m better or more thoughtful because I wear a funny hat. I wear the hat in part because other people tend to grin when they see it, so I’m happy to cheer someone else up. Without the hairband and makeup I’m 100% normal-looking. If some of you met me and a goth, you’d assume the goth was nicer and more thoughtful?
Well I had a nice, articulate, well thought out poast that the hamsters ate so now you’re stuck with me trying to remember what I said.
I wouldn’t assume that the Goth was the nicer and more thoughtful of the two of you, just as I (no offense) wouldn’t assume you were until I had had the chance to speak with you and gather what I could of your repsective personalities. There are some goths who put on an air of superiority but quite often they are ostracized by others (the “more Goth than thou” thing I mentioned earlier) because intolderance is something very few goths have any tolerance for whatsoever. I will, however, go to say that, as a rule, a greater percentage of Goths are strong introverts as oppossed to the “mainstream” population which has more of a tendency towards extrovertion which would make them more thoughtful in the sense of constantly being deep in thought about their actions and those of others.
As far as the name goes. I won’t claim to know exactly but IIRC it has to do with the Gothic literary genre which has a tendency to lean towards the supernatural and the darker aspects of existence.
Quasi- word has it it originated in an interview with Siouxsie Sioux who said something along the lines of “It’s a very Gothic thing we’ve been doing.”
Meros - I believe the proper term for it is “Goth as Fuck” 
I have a shirt that says exactly that. 
Mearlchan I’d assume you were both potentially interesting people, as the first impressions caused by your clothing would be of people who at least think about what they wear. I’d be worried though if you looked too much like a daisy (picturing you in green leotard, and big paper yellow petals all around your head 
) in case you were mad, or going to try and sell me something.
A thought about the Gothic clothing, is that at any Gothic event I have been too it is very much about ‘putting on a show’ the audience isn’t passive, but is part of the show itself. Like in a white tie society ball, the participants dress in a style that is designed to add to the event. It is a recreation of a romanticized vision of the past, like a recreation of a Viennese Masquerade. So going to an event in clothing that disrupts the image may get you the cold shoulder from some participants, and may give you a bad view of them. Imagine going to a White Tie event wearing business casual, you would not even be allowed in, even a black tie and tuxedo would get you condescending looks.
I just have to chime in here. I’m going to claim (for want of a better term) uber-goth status, based on being part of the scene for a little over 20 years.
First, and contrary to what some posters have suggested: we have way better fashion sense than most. And mine varies between Romantic Goth and Cyber/Industrial. Although it is basically black on black, some deep reds, spikes for clubbing. Black eyeliner? Sure. Pale foundation? Not a chance, but I have pale skin and stay out fo the sun.
Introverted? Yes, mostly due to shyness, not uncommon amongst people who identify as goths. A common statement I hear is ‘hey, we are not standoffish, just too damned shy to introduce ourselves’.
Goth, really, is a music and fashion thing, not a lifestyle. There are however, certain stereotypes that are probably based on facts. Religiously; most I have met are atheists, but there is a lot of religious imagery to be seen. Its fun, and can be iconoclastic. Which leads me to the next point. There tends to be, among some, not exactly nihilism (we will leave that to the metalheads and spookykids) but a rejection of whatis seen as a shallow and materialistic society. One where your self-worth is measured by your relationships to others (your colleagues, your house in comparision to the neighbours etc).
Normals: Ok, insert a big grin here. Frankly, I have not, nor I ever, desired to be a part of what you might call ‘normal’ society, with manufactured pop, plastic food, fascination with the lives of celebrities, reality tv and bad manners. I think I will simply ignore it, as best I can. I still hold down a job, live in a house etc.
Interested in darker things: sure and why not. the world is not all sunshine and light you know. Depressed: nope, nor are many I know. Violent: nope. Our club here in Hobart, after running more than three years and with very high attendances has never] seen a single fight. I doubt many places could say that. We do not even use bouncers.
Goths just wanna have fun…and a lot of it.
Originally, the Goths were a barbarian Germanic people from Eastern Europe who helped put an end to the Roman Empire by sacking Rome in the 5th century and then converted to a form of Christianity called Arianism that was declared heretical by the Roman Church. (The extinct Gothic language is valuable to historical/comparative linguists because it is the only recorded example of an East Germanic language (English is West Germanic), and the only known Germanic language of a level of antiquity comparable to ancient Greek, Latin, and Sanskrit, and as such is important for tracing developments in the Indo-European languages. The only man in modern times who could actually speak Gothic, and even write poetry in it, was Professor J. R. R. Tolkien.)
When the Gothic style of cathedral architecture first appeared around the 13th century, it was so radically different and striking that people of more conservative aesthetic tastes found it barbarous, and so nicknamed it after the well-known barbarian people of late antiquity. It put an end to the Romanesque style just as the original Goths had put an end to the Roman empire.
In the late 18th century, the next to last step in this process of meaning transfer, the English author Horace Walpole wrote tales like The Castle of Otranto that were nicknamed “Gothic fiction” maybe because they at first seemed so outlandish. Walpole’s Gothic style became the inspiration in part for Mary Shelley’s Frankenstein and for the 1960s TV series Dark Shadows.
Walpole’s dark, brooding, moody settings thus associated the name Gothic with the dark side of the Romantic movement, Strum und Drang, gloom and doom as sexy and attractive, Die Leiden des jungen Werthers, Heathcliffe, etc. Look how much of the modern Gothic style harks back to the Romantic period including Walpole, Goethe, Mary Shelley; recall that the first Goths who pioneered this stuff had been kids in the 1960s who were devoted to catching all the episodes of Dark Shadows…
Good stuff Jomo Mojo do you know how “American Gothic” style fits in to all this? I mean those dour images of farmers with hay forks seem far removed from the rest of Gothdom.
Well, they do wear a lot of black…
Seriously, though, Grant Wood’s paintingAmerican Gothic was entitled such because of the “Gothic” pointed window in the house in the background. To Wood’s mind, the window seemed out of place in rural Eldon, Iowa.
The best explanation I’ve been able to come up with is this:
It’s a person’s way of saying “I’m going to define how you perceive me before you get a chance to judge me” so its about control over other people’s ability to stereotype.
goth, decorative punk, any fringe dresser really.
Living in Key West for a couple years I ran into just about every shape and form of human being you could imagine. What’s my conclusion? There are good people and there are bad people. What you wear, where you hang out, what kind of transportation you use, etc., has absolutely nothing to do with the person you are inside. See, Key West has a way of “undressing” people. The atmosphere is Key West is, “Hey, we have seen it all before, grab a chair and sit down over here with the rest of us. Let’s see who you really are”. Key West is a great “equalizer”. But I digress …
Swing and a miss.
oh, well I have no choice to conceed and stand corrected in the face of such strong logic.
This is more than just a “swing,” I’ve been working with teens for about 12 years now, I’m kind of a student of youth culture, group and individual psychology. While not the most noted authority, I understand a thing or two.
There are certainly other factors that contribute to the desire to dress “goth.”
peer harmony-people don’t want to stick out too much.
why would someone purposely want to stick out in the larger society? (or dress a certain way, knowing that they will)?
peer solidarity/identity- there’s a group of us and we are young, heartache to heartache we stand, no promises no demands, love is a battlefield (I used to love that video). us vs the world basically.
This is who I am and who you have no choice but to see me as.
I am unique
I am different
You don’t know me
you don’t understand me
you don’t “get” me
I don’t want to be “gotten” (but you should try anyway, cause I think I’m pretty cool in this outfit, I’ve invested alot of time and caring and I want to be understood and appreciated for it).
The dress is at once an invitation, a challenge, and a protective layer. It’s an aggressive move toward defining one’s relationship with society (parents, teachers, whoever).
why this specific fashion? “cause I like it” certainly doesn’t cut it as an explanation, but broken down, the phrase explains it. I mean, that’s what the kid means when he/she says it. Teens often aren’t the most articulate of people.
“cause I like it” -I’ve actually had this conversation with people. It breaks down to a few things: It makes me feel special, it makes me feel comfortable (I take this to mean in an empowered way, like “yeah, I get to decide how to dress”). I can identify with power this way (power is a big one).
Basically people dress “goth” for most of the reasons that anyone dresses the way they do.
“extreme” dressers just need (want) to be more proactive about the way people see them. There’s power and protection in such behavior.