Is there a difference? I’ve heard the term Anglo, and I’ve heard the term Anglo Saxon. I’ don’t believe I’ve ever heard a group of people called Saxons, though.
They’re different tribes of Germanic people, I believe. There were Angles, Saxon, and Jutes. They arrived in England from present-day Germany, Netherlands and Denmark, I believe. Circa 450 AD?
Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will be along soon.
And another tribe of the Germanic invasion of Britain of that time was the Frisians, of which some remain in Friesland in the Netherlands today. A group of people called the Saxons exist to this day in Saxony, a part of Germany. They even had a king up until 1918.
G’day
The difference is dialect and tribal affiliation. The Angles and the Saxons (and the Jutes) were members of different Germanic tribes that invaded Britain in the 5th Century. The Saxons were from the area west of the Elbe, and established kingdoms in Wessex, Sussex, and Essex. The Angles were from what is now Schleswig-Holstein, and established kingdoms in East Anglia, Mercia, and Northumbria. (The Jutes were from Jutland, and established a kingdom in Kent and a settlement on the Isle of Wight.) After four hundred years of warfare and Danish invasion, these seven kingdoms were united into the Anglo-Saxon Kingdom under the rulership of the House of Wessex, a Saxon dynasty. Latter, after William the Bastard inflicted a terrible revenge on Northumbria for resisting his conquest, usurpation, and repression, a great many Angles fled into the lowlands of Scotland, establishing the little-known language Scots (or Lallans), which is a Germanic language related to English but with far less French influence.
I do not know what happened to those Angles (if any) who remained on the mainland, but I guess they were absorbed by the Danes or crushed by Charlemagne. The Saxons who remained on the mainland established one of the so-called “stem duchies” of the mediaeval Kingdom of the Germans. The borders shifted from time to time, with the effect that the duchy gradually migrated from the region of Bremen to the region of Dresden. I do not think that this reflected a migration of the Saxon people, but I might be wrong about that. The Dukes of Saxony were electors of the Holy Roman Empire. They as one time had a stranglehold on the supposedly-elective Kingdom of Bohemia. In 1806 they promoted themselves to Kings of Saxony. The Kingdom was abolished in 1918.
“Anglo”, as far as I know, is a recent abbreviation of “Anglo-Saxon”, rather than being an independent development from “Angle”.
Regards,
Agback
From what I remember reading on the subject, the distinction between the Angles, Saxon, and Jutes was very fine. They were all Germanic-speaking peoples who–before they invaded Britain–were settled closely together along the coast of what is now Denmark (specifically Jutland), northern Germany, and the low countries and likely intermingled freely with one another. However, because they were illiterate, we don’t know much about whatever differences may have existed between the tribes. Although, it was likely–at best–a minor dialectic difference.
I should emphasize that when I was stating that not much is known about the differences between the Angles, Saxon, and Jutes, I was referring to the period of time when the tribes were on the mainland and not in Britain.
Heh - No offense Hermann Cheruscan, but I’m a little tickled that someone with your username is asking this question :D.
Anyway, let me endorse what Agback said, with the added comment is that the reason early medieval Saxony is geographically different than late medieval/modern Saxony has to due with the division of the original Duchy of Saxony between various dynasties. One of the branches also acquired territories in the east, which owing to Saxony being the senior territory, the eastern lands became known as Saxe-Wittenberg ( to distinguish them from the senior line ). Eventually it became the Electorate of Saxony, while the name Saxony disappeared in the original territory as it was continually subdivided over time. Just part and parcel of the complex dynastic history of Germany.
As to the Anglo-Saxons in England, the reason the name ‘Saxon’ became the standard name for the Germanic English, is that all the Angle kingdoms were conquered and submerged by the Norse. The lone surviving royal line was that of Wessex ( ‘West Saxony’ ), which eventually united England under it. It was the extinction of the Saxon house of Wessex after the death of Edward the Confessor, that precipitated the struggle between Harold Godwinson, Harold Hardrada, and William of Normandy for the English throne.
- Tamerlane
They weren’t exactly extinct. Edgar the Aetheling was a great-grandson of Edmund II “Ironside”. He was even elected king after the death of Harold, but he was ignored (rather than deposed) by William the Bastard, and fled into Scotland during the Harrying of the North in 1068. Risings aimed at restoring Edgar continued at least until 1069. Edgar submitted to William in 1074, and was still a player until the Battle of Tinchebrai (1104). He died obscurely about 1125.
Edgar’s sister (whose name slips my mind) married Malcom III “Canmore”, king of Scotland. Their four sons reigned in succession (after some trouble with their uncle Donald III): the last of them was St David. His heirs continued as kings of Scotland until James VI ‘inherited’ the English throne from Elizabeth I. So in 1603, after 537 years of usurpation, the rightful heir of the Anglo-Saxon kings reclaimed the Kingdom of England.
Then it was time for the Witanagemot to reassert itself.
Regards,
Agback
True. But the direct descent line was terminated.
Right, but again we have an even more tenuous connection, based on the Bruce claims of descent from the Canmores ( the direct line of which is considered extinct with Margaret ), then through Marjorie Bruce to the house of Stewart. Pretty torturous, really.
But then isn’t royal genealogy, generally ;)?
- Tamerlane
Jutland is the peninsula that stretches out from Germany toward Denmark and includes so-called Schlesswigge-Holstein, thus raising the whole Schlesswigge-Holstein Question all over again! But anyways, I always assumed that the Jutes came from Jutland. And it all goes back to the root jut which means to jut out, like the peninsula, or is this just folk etymology? I often have wondered why since the Angles, the Saxons, and the Jutes all came to England, hows come we get England from Angle-land and often hear of Anglo-Saxons as a name for everybody’s big enemy because of the British Empire, why has no name in popular usage come from the Jutes? (The name British comes from the Britons, who were like the Scots and the Irish and the Welsh and the Cornish all Gaels or Celts). Meantime, the Picts, like the Jutes, have gone down into obscurity. They used to say, “the Picts and the Scots” were in Scotland, but now people up there are called Scottish. (And don’t forget that the Swedes were called “the Swedes and the Goths,” whatever happened to the Goths???) Are there any Pictish Rights groups or Jute Rights people or Goths left that want repayment or their own country, etc.? Or did they all get absorbed by intermarriage and forgetting their heritage?
Ah, while the Jute kingdom of Kent had a pretty long history in the Britain ( ~455-825 or 827 C.E., with a few interregnums ), it was ultimately a rather small state surrounded by larger, more powerful neighbors. Consequently it didn’t leave much impact, ultimately being absorbed into the Saxon kingdom of Wessex by Egbert.
- Tamerlane
Re: The Jutes - Here, I found a map. As you can see, they occuppied two itsy chunks. One in Kent and another on the Isle of Wight and Hampshire on the mainland:
- Tamerlane
Getting back to the “Anglo” part of the OP, and reinforcing what Agback said, “Anglo-Saxon” has come to mean the modern English (many, perhaps most, of whom are descendants of Angles and Saxons). “Anglo” is the short from of this term. In the U.S. it is often used to describe those of European descent, English or not.
Slight variation on the Angles and Saxons: why did they become known as the English BY the English, but as Saxons by the Celtic nations? (I believe “Saesneg” is Welsh for “English”, and “Sassenach” is in common use in Scotland).
Some say that “Jut” is a variation of “Goth”. But given how long ago these terms developed, who knows.
The word ‘Anglo’ by it’s self is probably just an abbreviation for ‘Anglo-Saxon’, but it is also functions as a prefix to other nationalities, for example ‘Anglo-Canadian’ would refer to someone who had English parents but was brought up in Canada or vice-versa, or it could refer to an agreement (e.g. Anglo-Candian agreement) between the two countries.
(The name British comes from the Britons, who were like the Scots and the Irish and the Welsh and the Cornish all Gaels or Celts). The name British doesn’t really come from the Britons, they both come from the latin name for the Island, Britannia. ‘Gael’ is just the what the Irish celts called themselves and is the really just the same word as the ‘Gaul’, which the celts living in France (and probably the ancient Britons too) called themselves.
Well of course no, there is no-one alive today who would identify themselves as pictish. The reason for this is, though Scotland was named after it’s Irish element (Scotia was what the celtic called Ireland), it was actually born out of the joining together of two kingdoms in that area, the Pictish kingdom and the gaelic kingdom (it was here that that the stone of scone became a symbol for Scotland). By this time though the Picts dominated the Gaels militarily but Gaelic culture was starting to take over. Soon after this any distinction between the picts and the Scotti/Gaels disappeared. There is still a distinction today between the lowland Scots who were descendants of mostly Anglo-Saxons who became part of Scotland later and the the highland Scots, this is why Scottish Gaelic is still spoken as a first language in th most nortern reaches of the highlands.
I can’t remember this exactly but IIRC correctly it’s something to do with the Vikings who raided the east where the Angles lived, so having the most contact with the Angles they called the island ‘Angland/Engaland’ (or something simlair) later when England was dominated by them the name stuck.
Could very well be. The southern part of Sweden is called Götaland and has possibly got some connection with the Goths.
Not exactly. Jutland is a large peninsula that stretches north from Germany towards Sweden. It is the mainland of Denmark.
Jutland is named for the Jutes who lived there, not because it ‘juts out’. In Danish it is ‘Jylland’.
Regards,
Agback
You think that’s bad? Look at the bum deal that Fitch got…
Sasannach means Person of “Sasann” which is simply “England”. I was told it comes from the Old Gaelic for “South” but, come to think of it, I’ve no idea why the Welsh would use such a word so perhaps I was misinformed. I should check at some point, but perhaps a knowledgable person could confirm or deny this.