What's the importance/place and origins of ridicule as social bond in black culture?

Great Debates
41

[QUOTE=Krokodil]
(a) Click on the blue word. That’s one cite right there.
[/QUOTE]

No, it is not. Your own claim was as follows:

[QUOTE=Krokodil]
It’s called signifying and it does have a special and larger role in Black American culture than in, say, almost any other culture.
[/QUOTE]

Emphasis mine.

From the Cecil column you linked to:

[QUOTE=Cecil Adams]
Still, this kind of thing isn’t an exclusively African-American preoccupation.
[/QUOTE]

Nowhere in your so-called cite is there evidence, or even a claim, that ritual insulting has “a special and larger role in Black American culture than in, say, almost any other culture.” Your cite doesn’t even begin to say what you’ve claimed to be true.

If you have some evidence that this sort of thing is more important in African-American culture than any or most other cultures, let’s see you prove it, or even provide any evidence. It strikes me as being obviously false and risible, but I’m open to evidence, as opposed to just bald claims backed up by Straight Dope columns that doesn’t, you know, say what you claim they say.

I don’t even understand how anyone could make such a ridiculous claim unless they were familiar with all the other cultures there are, or at least a really large number of them. Just what do you, Krokodil, know about the nature and importance of ritual insult in the culture of the Basques, or Quebecois? What about south Portugal, the Ainu, Bavaria, working-class Northern Ireland (Catholic or Unionist?) or the Sukuma of Tanzania? You’ve got a shitload of ethnic groups to examine to even start to support your claim.

I looked at the first ten or twelve and none made the risible claim that ritual insulting is more important in Black culture “than in, say, almost any other culture.” If it’s merely your claim that it’s just the only culture that happens to use the specific word “signifying” to denote what young men pretty much the world over do, well, big fucking deal.

You made the claim, so you’re the one who has to back it up.

42

Typical VCO3 thread.

  1. OP is not very well articulated and can be either a) immensely interesting or b) sorta kinda insensitive, depending on how you read it.

  2. A pile-on ensues. Quickly, exaggerations-of-exaggerations are used to characterize the OP. Somebody offers a backhand accusation of racism.

  3. A minor sincere discussion persists (due to 1a), but it’s derailed by spillover from the primary fervor.

  4. VCO3 clarifies and it is revealed he had a sincere, reasonable question all along.

  5. Everybody’s too distracted or exhausted to come back to the (immensely interesting) issue.

It would be great if we could just skip step 2 from now on.

43

[QUOTE=Key Lime Guy]
It would be great if we could just skip step 2 from now on.
[/QUOTE]

Or even 1.

44

RickJay,

What exactly do you want a cite for? That the phenomenon under discussion is called “signifying” (which I did indeed provide a cite for, and should be beyond dispute) or that it’s a bigger deal to blacks than to whites? The latter is clearly a personal opinion, not a factual/quantifiable claim, and asking me to back it up with a cite is like me demanding that you prove you like pudding.

45

[QUOTE=Garfield226]
Or even 1.
[/QUOTE]

So VCO3 has a reputation for posting "a) immensely interesting or b) sorta kinda insensitive, depending on how you read it.-KLG "posts.

Given the usual polar reactions it would seem the board has an uncomfortable racial sensitivity that sidetracks whatever merit the OP might have.

46

Seriously, you guys, thanks for the great responses. I had never heard this referred to as “signifying” before, and while I’m not quite as comfortable with such a limited definition - I see this among black people of all ages, both sexes, and all socioeconomic status rather than just “young black males” like in the Cecil column - I’m glad to see that there’s definitely a consensus that it’s a major part of black culture much moreso than others.

47

[QUOTE=Spectre of Pithecanthropus]
Ha! I have the very LP (“Go Bo Diddley”) frontally displayed in my stereo cabinet.
[/QUOTE]
“You that thing I th’ow peanuts at!” :smiley:

48

[QUOTE=John Mace]
I just want to know why they’re so loud.
[/QUOTE]

Because something smells like wet dog, and it’s making us all very irritated! :wink:

49

[QUOTE=Krokodil]
RickJay,

What exactly do you want a cite for? That the phenomenon under discussion is called “signifying” (which I did indeed provide a cite for, and should be beyond dispute) or that it’s a bigger deal to blacks than to whites?
[/QUOTE]

Your claim was that it was a bigger deal to American Blacks “than to, say, almost any other culture.” I have quoted you twice, and repeated that claim several times in challenging it. Please don’t pretend you don’t know what I’m asking you to support.

If it’s now just your opinion, well, I think it’s nonsense, and cannot imagine how anyone could say it with a straight face.

50

[QUOTE=tomndebb]
I have no idea where you live or how sheltered you may have been, but what you have portrayed describes most of the subcultural experiences I have had–none of which have been predominantly related to black culture.

High school kids? Constant cracking on each other.
College kids? Please! Each group thinks they invented a new art form as they repeat the efforts of every cohort that has passed before them.
(Read Romeo and Juliet and pay attention to the conversations among Romeo, Mercutio, and their merry band of hellraisers.)
Programmers or accountants and middle managers? Sarcasm and ridicule are a staple of lunchroom conversations.
Retail management and stock clerks? It is only interrupted by customers.
Construction workers? It makes up about 80% of their daily conversation.
Sailors? Only the fact that they are trapped together in small spaces for weeks at a time prevents them from escalating to violence.
Religious workers? It has always seemed pretty common in every group of priests and deacons with whom I have been involved.
You might be able to make a (weak) case that the type of badinage is different (or strikes your ears more harshly), but I have no idea why you would associate such back-and-forth exchanges as some sort of “black” phenomenon.
If you wish us to believe that you are some sort of “new” person, try examining your posts before you hit “submit” and ask yourself why you think there is or might be a racial component to your question. (There has rarely been and I think yoiu would be safer assuming there will not be.)
[/QUOTE]

Exactly what Tom said. Especially about Programmers or accountants and middle managers? Sarcasm and ridicule are a staple of lunchroom conversations.
I would just add Engineers to the group.

As to Sailors, that and cursing are pretty much required.

Jim

51

Key Lime Guy, I agree immensely. If instead of just picking at the OP people would just go right to the discussion of what I think in this case is an interesting and fair question, we might all learn something instead of making stupid little snarky remarks about why black people are so loud and don’t go camping. If anybody else in the world had posted this OP, it would have sparked a really interesting discussion. You guys are unfair.

52

To get in with the crowd suggesting that there may be some merit to the OP, possibly even as stated…however, I would amend “black” to “poor inner-city” or “ghetto” culture, including members of any race in that socio-economic position.

Rap battles, the dozens, signifying, etc. are all part of that same culture. While people of all socio-economic standings of course rib on each other and put each other down, there’s merit to the point that the particular socio-economic class of “the ghetto” seems to have done far more in the way of formalizing this tradition. Is that a debatable form of the OP?

ETA: to include VCO3’s point that it seems prevalant throughout black culture in particular, I expand my point to include: as an extension, do people of particular races, or perhaps particular recent socio-economic shifts, or due to other factors, perhaps emulate this behavior moreso than others?

53

[QUOTE=RickJay]
Your claim was that it was a bigger deal to American Blacks “than to, say, almost any other culture.” I have quoted you twice, and repeated that claim several times in challenging it. Please don’t pretend you don’t know what I’m asking you to support.

If it’s now just your opinion, well, I think it’s nonsense, and cannot imagine how anyone could say it with a straight face.
[/QUOTE]

Your scorn is my cross to bear, RickJay. I apologize for losing my temper earlier, but I stand by both my opinion and my chagrin at someone jumping in and demanding a cite for my having it.

I came across a (scant) link called Maya Angelou on Signifying, but have yet to find one about Emily Dickinson’s feelings on the subject. Or Mishima’s, or Kahlil Gibran’s.

54

is there a reason that there doesn’t seem to be any interest in debating this subject now that there’s no longer a pile-on over the language used in the OP? Or did everybody just want to jump VCO3 as suggested several times upthread?