What's the importance/place and origins of ridicule as social bond in black culture?

Great Debates
41

No, it is not. Your own claim was as follows:

Emphasis mine.

From the Cecil column you linked to:

Nowhere in your so-called cite is there evidence, or even a claim, that ritual insulting has “a special and larger role in Black American culture than in, say, almost any other culture.” Your cite doesn’t even begin to say what you’ve claimed to be true.

If you have some evidence that this sort of thing is more important in African-American culture than any or most other cultures, let’s see you prove it, or even provide any evidence. It strikes me as being obviously false and risible, but I’m open to evidence, as opposed to just bald claims backed up by Straight Dope columns that doesn’t, you know, say what you claim they say.

I don’t even understand how anyone could make such a ridiculous claim unless they were familiar with all the other cultures there are, or at least a really large number of them. Just what do you, Krokodil, know about the nature and importance of ritual insult in the culture of the Basques, or Quebecois? What about south Portugal, the Ainu, Bavaria, working-class Northern Ireland (Catholic or Unionist?) or the Sukuma of Tanzania? You’ve got a shitload of ethnic groups to examine to even start to support your claim.

I looked at the first ten or twelve and none made the risible claim that ritual insulting is more important in Black culture “than in, say, almost any other culture.” If it’s merely your claim that it’s just the only culture that happens to use the specific word “signifying” to denote what young men pretty much the world over do, well, big fucking deal.

You made the claim, so you’re the one who has to back it up.

42

Typical VCO3 thread.

  1. OP is not very well articulated and can be either a) immensely interesting or b) sorta kinda insensitive, depending on how you read it.

  2. A pile-on ensues. Quickly, exaggerations-of-exaggerations are used to characterize the OP. Somebody offers a backhand accusation of racism.

  3. A minor sincere discussion persists (due to 1a), but it’s derailed by spillover from the primary fervor.

  4. VCO3 clarifies and it is revealed he had a sincere, reasonable question all along.

  5. Everybody’s too distracted or exhausted to come back to the (immensely interesting) issue.

It would be great if we could just skip step 2 from now on.

43

Or even 1.

44

RickJay,

What exactly do you want a cite for? That the phenomenon under discussion is called “signifying” (which I did indeed provide a cite for, and should be beyond dispute) or that it’s a bigger deal to blacks than to whites? The latter is clearly a personal opinion, not a factual/quantifiable claim, and asking me to back it up with a cite is like me demanding that you prove you like pudding.

45

So VCO3 has a reputation for posting "a) immensely interesting or b) sorta kinda insensitive, depending on how you read it.-KLG "posts.

Given the usual polar reactions it would seem the board has an uncomfortable racial sensitivity that sidetracks whatever merit the OP might have.

46

Seriously, you guys, thanks for the great responses. I had never heard this referred to as “signifying” before, and while I’m not quite as comfortable with such a limited definition - I see this among black people of all ages, both sexes, and all socioeconomic status rather than just “young black males” like in the Cecil column - I’m glad to see that there’s definitely a consensus that it’s a major part of black culture much moreso than others.

47

“You that thing I th’ow peanuts at!” :smiley:

48

Because something smells like wet dog, and it’s making us all very irritated! :wink:

49

Your claim was that it was a bigger deal to American Blacks “than to, say, almost any other culture.” I have quoted you twice, and repeated that claim several times in challenging it. Please don’t pretend you don’t know what I’m asking you to support.

If it’s now just your opinion, well, I think it’s nonsense, and cannot imagine how anyone could say it with a straight face.

50

Exactly what Tom said. Especially about Programmers or accountants and middle managers? Sarcasm and ridicule are a staple of lunchroom conversations.
I would just add Engineers to the group.

As to Sailors, that and cursing are pretty much required.

Jim

51

Key Lime Guy, I agree immensely. If instead of just picking at the OP people would just go right to the discussion of what I think in this case is an interesting and fair question, we might all learn something instead of making stupid little snarky remarks about why black people are so loud and don’t go camping. If anybody else in the world had posted this OP, it would have sparked a really interesting discussion. You guys are unfair.

52

To get in with the crowd suggesting that there may be some merit to the OP, possibly even as stated…however, I would amend “black” to “poor inner-city” or “ghetto” culture, including members of any race in that socio-economic position.

Rap battles, the dozens, signifying, etc. are all part of that same culture. While people of all socio-economic standings of course rib on each other and put each other down, there’s merit to the point that the particular socio-economic class of “the ghetto” seems to have done far more in the way of formalizing this tradition. Is that a debatable form of the OP?

ETA: to include VCO3’s point that it seems prevalant throughout black culture in particular, I expand my point to include: as an extension, do people of particular races, or perhaps particular recent socio-economic shifts, or due to other factors, perhaps emulate this behavior moreso than others?

53

Your scorn is my cross to bear, RickJay. I apologize for losing my temper earlier, but I stand by both my opinion and my chagrin at someone jumping in and demanding a cite for my having it.

I came across a (scant) link called Maya Angelou on Signifying, but have yet to find one about Emily Dickinson’s feelings on the subject. Or Mishima’s, or Kahlil Gibran’s.

54

is there a reason that there doesn’t seem to be any interest in debating this subject now that there’s no longer a pile-on over the language used in the OP? Or did everybody just want to jump VCO3 as suggested several times upthread?