I really should point out that that there really is no such thing as “ultra-Orthodox” Jews. Hasidim (and that who I’m assuming is meant when the term is used) keep the same commandments that I do. We observe the same Shabbos, keep the same laws of kashrus, observe the same holidays, pray the same prayers, etc. It is true that Hasidim (and other sects as well) may have additional customs that they keep regarding mode of dress and behavior, but they are simply customs, nothing more. As for what the halacha (Jewish law) is, we all follow the same text (the Shulchan Aruch). The term “ultra-Orthodox” is really just an invention of the press to distinguish Hasidim from other Orthodox Jews.
Zev Steinhardt
It is true that the press invented (or at least populerized) the term ultra-orthodox, and it is true that the press frequently uses ultra-orthodox and hasidic interchangeably. But this is because the press refers to all ultra-orthodox jews as hasidim, not the other way around.
The differences between those typically described as ultra-orthodox and those typically described as Modern (or Centrist) Orthodox typically go beyond customs of dress and behaviour. Generally there are differences in ideology, and there are many areas of halacha in which the afforementioned groups tend to follow divergent rulings.
But again, these are only meant in a general way. There is no single clear demarcation between what is commonly described as ultra-orthodox jews and any other type of orthodox jew.
There are very few differences in ideaology. We all believe in the same God, await the same messiah, pray the same prayers, etc.
In addition, while they may follow divergent rulings, they acknowledge that it is only in matters of custom, not law. For example, a group of Hasidim (Belzer, I believe, but I could be mistaken on the identification) don’t eat carrots on Pesach (Passover). Now, I don’t know the reason for this custom, but even they would admit that one who eats carrots is not violating any halacha, as they would for a person who ate bread. They would not call me a sinner simply because I don’t wear a streimel. As far as actual halacha goes, however, there are very few, if any, actual divergent rulings.
Yup. But their behavior was in no way excusable. I - as well as many people I know - personally find haredi beliefs very offensive, but do we go around throwing stuff at them when they’re praying? (Sorry, I was a feminist before I knew anything about Judaism.) I would never even consider doing something like that. Just the idea horrifies me.
However, I understand your point, and I retract my statement that haredim dislike anyone different from themselves. They dislike anyone who prays in a different manner from themselves. I’m sure someone will dissect this statement, and I’m so wishy-washy, I’ll probably end up retracting this too, but right now, I feel that this is a fairly accurate statement.
If I may re-insert myself (with some trepidation) to this conversation, my view of the difference between the ultra-orthodox (haredi) and other observant jews is the difference between Beit Shamai and Beit Hillel. For the uninitiated, this is the diference between those who observe the hardest, most severe interpertation of a law (and any law can have several interpertation) to those who take a more liberal viewpoint. Thus, while all Jews obey the same basic laws, rhe haredim extrapolate upon these laws, occasionally to extreme conclusions.
And by the way, in the haredi view of things, any custom approved of by the proper Rabinnical athority is a de facto law.
It seems to me that it would be wise to start a new thread along the lines of Ask The Jewish Scholar or Ask The Scholar Of Judaism or possibly Ask The OY Guy. This thread remains fascinating (Thank you to all the scholars who have contributed. It has been a genuine pleasure to follow your discourse), but it has strayed from the title and is getting quite long.
As to the fights between various Jewish groups, David Ben-Gurion is alleged to have said
“Anyone meshuga enough to call himself a Jew is a Jew.”
Perhaps more reminiscent of Mel Brooks than Rambam, but I like it
Zev, your sincerity and integrity are evident from your postings to this board, and I did not mean to question them. What I meant was that the differences that I referred to are so blatent and so widely known that I wonder if you had some other intent. And if otherwise, I would rather not debate this particular issue here.
The only thing I can think of is to clarify that we are using the same terms.
In America, Modern Orthodox jews are the type who are affiliated with the OU. Their main rabbinical body is the RCA. Their foremost educational institution is Yeshiva U. (Also, perhaps, Ner Yisroel in Baltimore.) Prominent MO leaders include Rabbi Dr. Norman Lamm, Rabbi Avi Weiss, Rabbi Mordechai Tendler and Rabbi Mordechai Willig.
Ultra-Orthodox jews are the type who are affiliated with the Aguda, or, in the case of Hungarian Chassidim, the Hisachdus. Their foremost educational institution (non-Chassidic) is BMG in Lakewood. Prominent UO leaders include Rabbi Elya Svei, Rabbi Shmuel Kaminetzky and Rabbi Avrohom Pam.
In Israel, the terms used for the equivalent of these two groups are Dati and Charedi. They are commonly grouped by political party.
Datiim tend to be supporters of the NRP party, or one of it’s breakoff factions. Charedim who vote tend to support the Aguda/Degel Hatorah conglomerate. Many Sefardic Charedim vote for Shas. (Shas is often identified in the media as a Charedi party, but they actually draw support from a broader range of the electorate, unified only by Sefardic background). Many Charedim do not accept any party.
If you continue to maintain that the only thing separating these two groups are customs like streimels and carrots on Pesach, I will communicate with you via private e-mail
The political divide between these groups reflects genuine ideological differences. And there are halachic differences as well. You shall be hearing from me.
My point was that they dislike the ACTION of praying in that manner in a place they regard as holy. They expressed that dislike in a violent manner. But they would not be throwing things at you at a time when you were not doing the action that they found offensive, even if they knew that you were “anyone who prays in a different manner from themselves”.
Izzy, I see your point, although I disagree with it. The Kotel at Shavuot is holy to the rest of us, too, and we should have the right to pray there as much as anyone. Excusing them for their hideously bad behavior (on a chag, too - how hypocritical!) is, in my mind, a case of falling for the “some are more equal than others” line of thinking.
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Excusing them for their hideously bad behavior (on a chag, too - how hypocritical!) is, in my mind, a case of falling for the “some are more equal than others” line of thinking.
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I’m not attempting to justify anyone’s behaviour, as has been noted earlier here. I can certainly symphathize with how you must have felt. Nonetheless, I do think it is worthwhile to correctly characterize their actions and intents.
Beit Shammai and Bait Hillel were two rival schools in Mishnaic times (about 2000 years ago). They did not dispute the philosophies that Allesan in attributing to them. They disputed a series of unrelated halachic law issues. In most, but not all, of them, Beit Shammai was indeed more stringent. There are also some issues in which Bait Shammai ruled more leniently. (These are mostly found in the Mishna, Tractate Idiyos).
Ultimately, the rulings that were accepted were those of Beit Hillel. Today, all orthodox jews, including the most ultra of ultra orthodox jews, abide by the rulings of Beit Hillel. In fact, being more stringent in areas of dispute between BS and BH is specifically prohibited by rabbinical authorities, so as not to reopen what has now become a settled issue.
But now, Allesan is saying that ultra orthodox jews represent Beit Shammai. This is not an original concept. In fact, I have seen Conservative writers saying that all Orthodox Jews represent Beit Shammai, those rigid and unflexible people, whereas the Conservatives represent the more flexible, “kinder and gentler”, Beit Hillel school.
Poor Beit Shammai. They were actually very fine people, in their day. Now they used by every group to disparage their opponents.
The Talmud says “All depend on luck, even the Torah [scroll] in it’s ark”. Guess Beit Shammai’s was bad.