And your evidence that God isn’t just one more of the “spiritual forces of wickedness”, assuming he actually existed ?
Like I said, some people seem to like being set in a position of weakness relative to their god.
You know somebody’s a true fan when they claim that their team is the only team (give or take that not-worthy-of-individual-identity opposition.)
Just pulling your chain. Any all-powerful god worth their salt would be so powerful that the opposition would be irrelevent. They would literally have to choose to lose, and thus by their own choice and independent of any other factors be choosing to send their non-fans to hell. Presumably to give their fans somebody to look down on.
I think that all evidence points to kanicbird’s god only being good in a ‘To himself and sycophants of himself’ perspective, not an objective perspective. If they don’t kiss up to God, then screw 'em, right?
From the opening of the OP:
Could we talk about the topic a little longer please?
Chief Pedant, do placebos serve a “rational” purpose? If prayer serves as a balm to someone who believes, then at the very least, isn’t it having a placebo effect?
It was derailed when kanicbird started with his bit about any god but his is part of the “spiritual forces of wickedness”. And really, the question of God’s existence is a basic part of what most people say prayer is for.
The ‘spiritual forces of wickedness’ were created to keep you damn kids off of God’s lawn!
I made my best posts about prayer and (good god, y’all) what it’s good for in these threads:
Hoping to be born again [purpose of prayer] — squaring off with BadChad
How could prayer possibly work — combatting undue literalism
Concerning the Silly Notion that “God” must refer to the babytalk version thereof — more combatting of undue literalism
We’ve been down this road many a time. Given sufficient impetus, I may rouse myself from yawning laziness to post something new on the subject…
I could have sworn I heard Grams say the same thing on Dawson’s Creek.
(You can pound on me. I deserve it.)
Back to the subject: I was about to start such a thread as this myself. But I think you nailed it with this post.
Here are some things I had been wondering about:
*If everyone in a Florida town prayed for their house to be spared from the deadly hurricane and half of the houses survived, the survivors would be thankful for their prayers having been answered. The other half, of course, will wonder if their prayers were not heard or were not good enough. I would not know what to say to them that would make any sense.
*When people say they are going to pray for a loved one due to illness or whatever, I have to wonder why, unless it makes the pray-er feel better. If, as has been noted several times in this thread, God already knows our thoughts and what we want, why do we feel we need to call him or try to convince him to do something for us?
*Praying for an end to world hunger, poverty and so forth does not, I think, have much of any effect unless it causes you to increase your efforts to relieve such misery. Prayer by itself can’t accomplish such monumental changes…can it?
Mangetout touched on this in Post #28, and there are also perhaps relevant points in kanicbird’s Post #31 and the passage I quoted in Post #35.
To which I would add, sometimes we ourselves don’t know what we want until we ask. We may not actually have coherent thoughts until we take the trouble to put form emotions and whims and brain static into words or at least into more coherent thoughts.
And that, at least for the believer who has a relationship with God, calling out to God in a time of need comes far more naturally than not doing so. It’s something we are impelled to do, not by our logical brains, but by our hearts.
One question that springs to mind: Is “prayer by itself” really sincere—do you really want world hunger to end, if you’re not doing anything else to help relieve it?
AHunter3, I’m off to read your links in a moment – knowing that it’s time for something thoughtful . It’s good that our interpretations are a little different. I can always count of your posts to offer something new.
Thudlow, my prayers rarely end up the way they began. I might start out with thoughts of those who have so little and end up with thinking how frivolous I am or how I nee to take some things to Goodwill. Sometimes I might have feelings of gratitude and still other times I might feel a ittle guilty that I am not doing more with my wealth.
(Oh, I’m just American middle class. Among the peoples of the earth, that is very, very wealthy. Most of the time I stay too busy comparing my life with other Westerners.)
Prayer helps to give me perspective.
I haven’t written on or thought about religious topics in a long, long time.
Reaching back into my childhood here:
One prays in order to express one’s deepest hopes and fears to God. Not “inform” him of those hopes and fears, but “express” them.
Why do this? It’s actually a self-critical act. You express your hopes and fears to God in order to lay yourself open to both his love and his correction. God loves every person, but does not (or can not) express that love to those who aren’t open to him–and prayer, a profoundly self-opening act–is the way we become available to the expression of his love.
Well that’s an incomplete answer from distant memories of having once been the type to talk this way.
-FrL-
It was not derailed by me, praying against spiritual forces of wickedness is a reason for prayer, commonly called spiritual warfare. This answers the OP directly.
Placebos serve a rational purpose by faking the person into feeling better.
Couldn’t have come up with a better simile myself: prayers are like placebos.
Amen.
(Of course a rational result–feeling better–doesn’t mean the placebo had any “rational” effect on the underlying processes. Just like prayer.)
Not only that, but the act of conversation is itself a means of building a relationship. This is especially evident in the Christian worldview, in which believers are required to approach God with devotion and a pure heart.
Could God simply provide everything that people need, without them asking? Perhaps, but that would reduce him to a cosmic vending machine. Moreover, prayer involves far more than merely asking for stuff; rather, it also encompasses thankfulness, adoration, penitence and confession. A non-believer (and may casual believers) may think that prayer is merely a means to get what you want, but that’s not how it’s depicted in the Bible.
Perhaps this is a topic for another thread, but I’m intrigued by the notion that prayer somehow facilitates “conversation” with God.
In my reckoning- and that of many dictionaries- conversation implies some sort of intelligent discourse. It demands a back-and-forth of ideas. Were I to stand in an empty room and give voice to something I’d been pondering I might eventually reach a conclusion because the simple act of organizing my thoughts in the interest of speaking them aloud could stir certain analytical processes.
In this case, I wouldn’t claim to have conversed with the room. I wouldn’t claim that it provided an answer. Nor would I say that any particular aspect of the room had inspirationally guided me to the right answer by virtue of some metaphysical process. It’s just me in there.
Just say that you happen to really, really think this guy Hank is awesome for some reason. You approach Hank on the street and greet him. He doesn’t react in any perceptible way, but you assume that since he’s standing right there in front of you, he must be aware of your presence and you commence with the adoration. You gush for a time, genuflect a bit, and eventually leave satisfied in the knowledge that you’ve just had a good conversation with Hank and your relationship with him is even better than ever. Hank continues to stare dispassionately into the distance-- apparently oblivious to everything that went on.
Sitting nearby and observing this exchange, I come to two conclusions:[ul][li]While you are obviously a really affable guy, the friendship you offer Hank seems misplaced.[*]Hank is kind of a dick.[/ul][/li]
Anyway, back to the point… can it be reasonably asserted that one “point of prayer” is to converse with a particular deity in a meaningful sense? If so, what is the nature of that conversation?
** My bolding.
But this Dad has bugged your house. You don’t need to call, he knows if you’ve been naughty or nice already.
Yes, but pretending that someone who is in the room isn’t there is quite rude.
Not if you have no reason to believe there’s anyone there in the first place.
He can tap me on the shoulder anytime if he wants attention.
Prayer is like masturbation - it feels good, it’s cheap, and done properly, it shouldn’t bother anyone else. However there are times when doing it is better than thinking about it.
This bit of wisdom, commonly promoted, breaks down a bit when you consider that the end-game is supposed to be Heaven. In Heaven, precisely this situation is supposed to occur and all needs will be permanently met.
If you were to have to ask in Heaven–if there were even a choice to ask–then someone would fail to choose properly and the whole shebang would start again…
Well, see, it’s His house.
Yes, He knows not only what I say, but everything I don’t say. And all the things I wish I had said, and the things I that I will have wished I had said.
Call your dad. He loves you, and would really like to hear from you.
Tris