I’m happy to see that other posters have already debunked all the prejudice in the OP. Just let me add 16 tons of flak for the hate speech. (Taking up arms, jeez!)
There is absolutely no way that Muslim and/or immigrant influence will negatively affect “our culture”. Much more potentially damaging, in fact, is resurgent fundamentalist christian influence like you can see in the US. I for one hope there will be increasing influence of minority cultures on the mainstream. It can only result in more tolerance, dilution of christian dominance (which I would applaud), and better food too!
This is exactly my experience exclusively with second generation immigrant people I know.
I also note that we have Muslim politicians who have immigrant roots. They tend to be with left-leaning political parties, motivated typically by civil-rights and anti-discrimination issues. There is no conservative Muslim political party in Western Europe (yet) that I know of. And certainly none that is anywhere near as narrow-minded and bigoted as some of the conservative christian parties that we do have.
I tried to look for stats on what percentage of people in the immigrant community are “like this”. Unfortunately I didn’t find any. I did get a feeling that, criminal and violent behaviour aside (which multiple parties are guilty of), the problem is exactly the prejudiced perceptions like the OP with legitimate anti-discrimination and emancipation efforts of immigrant community members.
That I’d like to see a cite for, as it certainly doesn’t jibe with my impression. All of these dictatorial regimes do have pockets of carefully cultivated support ( you need some sort of powerbase ), but in general they’re not popular in any genuine sense of the word. Even the supporters are more often just self-serving, rather than true fans and allies ( depending on the nature of the regime of course ).
The great expulsion was not after Granada, but was rather was initiated by Philip III on the advice of the duke of Lerma and carried out in the period 1609-1614. In 1492 after the conquest of Granada the Jews had been expelled. In 1499 forced mass baptisms were held, resulting in the First Revolt of Alpujarras 1499-1502. After that the Moors were twice given the choice of conversion or emigration in 1502 and 1525 ( the second a bit of backsliding by Charles V, who had promised not to push that policy in 1518 ), which most Moors responded to by pretending to convert. As the Turkish wars heated up in the 1550’and 1560’s worries about a Moorish Fifth Column increased. As a result a determined effort was made to stamp out Moorish culture which rather predictably ended up precipitating the Second Revolt of Alpujarras in 1568-1570. Philip II responded to that violent event by forcibly resettling 100,000 - 150,000 Moors elsewhere in Spain, but as that wasn’t regarded as having solved the problem.
Hence Philip III’s solution - it is estimated that 300,000 Moors were expelled from a total Spanish population of ~8,000,000 and a much larger proportion of southern Spain. Maybe a third of Valencia’s population was removed for example. The result was a serious further weakening of the already devastated Spanish economy which continued to spiral ominously downward.
Cardinal Richileau ( taking advantage of a great opportunity to spred some anti-Spanish propaganda, France and Spain at that point being archenemies ) called it ’ the most barbarous act in the annals of mankind.’
Thanks for the broader image, Tamerlane. I was just reacting to that High School short hand that says that Los Reyes Catollicos threw out those slimey moros, since a large part of the Iberian population in Andalucia was Muslim, at least officially.
I think it’s interesting to note that this stronghold of Cathlicism - Spain - in fact was muslem longer than it has been Christian. And before that, it was of course the Visigoths and their pagan beliefs and Roman before that.
You are right —about Sweden’ s history.But wrong about the current problem.
Swedes complained in the 50’s about “leeches” from Yugoslavia, just like Americans complained in the early 1900’s about all the immigrants who arrived then.But there is one huge, huge difference: Nobody in those immigrant groups ever flew planes into buildings or tried to destroy their newly adopted country.
Swedes hated Yugoslavs and Poles, Americans hated the Irish, the Italians, the Jews.But the reasons were trivial:-they hated the newcomers who talked funny, dressed funny , cooked funny-smelling food and played funny-sounding music.
But none of those Yugos, Poles,Irish preached open hatred, and publicly swore that they would violently overthrow the goverment in order to create a society cleansed of infidels.
The muslims in Europe contain a significant and vocal minority who honestly believe that they have the right to attack and destroy western society, and they are actively supported by another “minority” (millions, tens of millions?) of Muslims in Saudia, Iran, and elsewhere.
Many of the posts in this thread have mentioned the terrors of Christian history–the crusades, the inquisition…But by bringing up those subjects, you actually defeat your own argument, and support the OP’s fears.Christians did terrible things in the Middle Ages,…but * then learned from their mistakes*. Today, there is not one Catholic priest on the planet who advocates jihad or beheading unbelievers.
It isnt “xenophobia”,Gaspode. A phobia is an illogical, irrational fear. But fear of jihadis is totally reasonable.
The british police have found Muslims in possession of an entire warehouse full of dangerous chemicals, the FBI has found muslims gathering precise data about the strength of the steel supports in criticial buildings, and all supported by a well-organized community of religious fanatics.
now back to the original issue–how long will it take before Europe goes muslim:–I dont think the British or French Paliaments will ever pass a law requiring women to wear a burqa, or prohibiting women from voting. France has already recognized the dangers, and is trying to prevent it (clumsily, in the school dress issue).
What we need to do is remain open to diversity in INDIVIDUAL behavior, but pass rigid laws prohibiting any sort of subversive activity, including the preaching of jihad and “martydom”.
( and dont cry to me about Joe McCarthy.McCarthyism deteriorated to a futile witch hunt, because there weren’t any realistic numbers of witches out there.
If only that were true of jihadis…)
chappachula: You seem to be advocating subjecting all Muslims to collective responsibility for extremists’ actions and views. I presume you don’t hold all Christians responsible for abortion-doctor-murdering fundamentalists, or for David Koresh, so why the double standards?
As for those few Islamists who do actively encourage violence - there’s laws in many countries to tackle incitement. It’s very different when we’re talking about the larger number who merely express solidarity with/admiration for/etc terrorists. Yes it seems paradoxical to protect these points of view with the Western values of free speech - but what’s the alternative? Free speech for non-Muslims only? Free speech except when you say something we don’t like?
Maybe, but they are culturally backward as well as some Middle Easterners, the fact is these people because of Colonialism etc, have never experienced half of what Europe fought over for the last couple of centuries, or are in the situation where they are experiencing all the problems we faced at once. I’ll give you the example of Nigeria for one, a Muslim dominated north and Chrisitian dominated south, which cannot intergrate at all.
Have you not read the Qu’ran? It specifically says this must happen because we’re not followers of their faith 2.5% of our income to go towards charities.
Do what you want, but this still doesn’t give me a reason why I should tolerate the prospect of Muslim dominated Europe, ever. Thats the thing you see, if this were to ever happen, many of the laws, such as Homosexuality and co habating couples, progressive laws on womens rights, abortion, divorce, inheiritence would all be affected, for the worse.
Even if I’m wrong and people move around and then become the dominant culture faith etc at my expense doesn’t mean I should just accept it and move on.
And 10% of Muslims’ income is supposed to be donated to charity. So you find yourself rather well-off in comparison.
The same would be true if fundamentalist Christians were to become powerful. You’re focussing on the restrictiveness of Islam while refusing to acknowledge similar traits in other religions. You aren’t going to have a balanced or full view if you continue to do that.
My mistake. They caught religion when they first tried to invade Italy and were (sort of) Christians when they went for the Iberian peninsula.
Naw.
Roughly a quarter - a quarter - of the population in my town is Muslim. I live right next to a big fat terrorist target, the bridge between Denmark and Sweden (remember, Denmark was in the allience in Iraq) and blowing that up would send the whole Scandinavian economy down the toilet. But I’m not irrationally afraid of this forreign influence. They are not destroying our culture, if anything, we try to destroy theirs. About 18 months ago, someone torched the Mosque here in town.
There is a big problem with integration, but it ain’t their fault. We simply did a shit poor job in receiving them.
Another thing. You really need to try to figure out why 9/11 happened, and why the bombing in Madrid happened. I’ll give you a clue for free, where you can start your research: Google for “The fall of the house of Saud” and read a very interesting and frightening article. Then check out the documentary “The Commanding Heights” discussed elsewhere in GD (it’s available online, perfectly legal). Then get some popular science books about sociology and anthropology. Let me give you a hint: It’s not because “they hate our way of life.”
And laws which we’ve fought for, equal rights etc, absolutely NO negative affect? Hey, everyone advocates minorities in the mainstream, but I still wouldn’t like to see Muslims in any sort of way dominate Europe. You may whine about Christian dominance, but this religion only got watered down by people with the balls to stand up to it, no one stands up or talks about how Islam can be oppressive because of the pretext them being ‘not good Muslims’ or ‘its not what Islam means’
About the resurgence of Christian fundamentalism, what would be so different if an Islamic culture posed to dominate my continent in which I live had more violent resurgence of their faith? People seem to forget that Westerners, the ones who originated from these places, are Christian, just because our beliefs have been watered down doesn’t mean that we have to accept another form either.
They may be few Islamists, I agree, but think about the majority of Muslims and their views on (I know I keep mentioning it but its a good point) Homosexuality, our sexual views, our openess. The thing is with Muslims is that if they ever became the majority in my country or Europe, we’d see a drastic shift and a large step backwards, for policies regarding everything we’ve fought for. Change in Islam is next to impossible, people just simply won’t think or accept things if they question the book.
Yes sketchy, I don’t remember the last time when Modern Christians condoned terrorist actions which killed thousands of innocent people. I knew that ‘Some of my best friends are etc’ line, thats your opinion then think that, its just surprising that you would all gladly see the demise of Chrisitanity. I mean hey, the quicker the better, but when a more intolerant and more traditional binding religion alien to Europe comes along, hey we couldn’t be anymore hospitable to it.
Nieveity into their extreme. Quit with the ‘world view through rose tinted glasses’
Yes but the thing is with the USA, Western Europe, Latin America and Eastern Europe is…we all have a common religion along the same lines, thats why they intergrated so well. With Islam and Christian/Secular based culture, you can’t. What we get is always self imposed segregation.
Most left leaning parties advocate the independence of Palestine from brutal Israeli ‘tyrants’ and besides you’re right, they do protect their rights, and advocate more, thats why we’ve got a Sharia court which is a parallel court to the Canadian judicial service set up. Its always apparent that when Muslim immigrants get to the stage where they are near a majority size, the protest for rights and special status. We’ve got problems in our culture too, we’re too fearful of offending, even if it raises valid points.
I’m glad, they’re finally got the guts to speak out against what prospects their states have of becoming if they tolerate their differences even if they are negative and detremental to the state. Its mostly our fault, I’ll give an example, when France wanted immigrants to finance its economic growth in the 50’s and 60’s it went to the poorest and backward parts of the Muslim world to look for it, and now it has the very real prospect of being a threat. And no, I won’t adjust. I will act against it.
Tribalism is a problem in the 3rd and Developing worlds, bringing it here can make it worse. A patchwork of ethinicities is a recipe for disaster on a Yugoslavian scale.
Cite?
Christian fundamentalists are mild in comparision to Islamic terrorists, trying to compare both along the same lines in the modern age is pretty flawed.
Yes, explain Saudi Arabians and people all around the M.E, who lived pretty well (some still do) who still support and actively engaged in terrorism. They hate the Wests power, and pretty much blame it for everything they’ve got a problem with, either us or the Jews.
Yeah, its both of our fault, us being too accomodating without completely understanding, and their fault for not intergrating as much.
Didn’t someone already post about the primarily leftward leanings of Muslim politicians in Europe? In the United States, the largest Muslim population is probably in the Detroit area, which is represented by one of the most liberal people in our government.
That’s not true, and it’ll happen more as more Muslims go into ‘your’ country.
Can you make any argument that doesn’t involve such silly overgeneralizations? “Westerners are Christian?” Again, how many different kinds of Christians are there?
So far it sounds like you’re wrong.
Why is this true of Islam and not Christianity? Fundamentalists are fundamentalists. They’re a minority who make a disproportionate amount of noise.
Not everything is the same, but I hope you’re not arguing that Christians hasn’t murdered their share of people in the name of god.
Don’t use insults you can’t spell.
The US is mostly Protestant, Latin America is almost all Catholic. Western Europe has both of those, as well as Lutherans and Anglicans and a few other things.
Theocratic culture is theocratic culture, I don’t really care whose it is. But being a Muslim does not require you to oppose secularism. If you like I’ll find a Muslim and ask him about it.
The use of these kinds of hysterical arguments really weaken your case.
It’s a civil court.
Typical social conservative jabber about ‘special rights,’ check.
You’re a racist and you should probably just acknowledge it instead of this ‘defending Europe’ song and dance.
And another thing. You keep going on about the “laws which we’ve fought for, equal rights etc.” You never fought for anything, Ryan. You’re 18. You never fought for anyone’s rights. In fact, the people who were fighting for equal rights were fighting against people like you who argued that it would destroy the country’s culture, traditions, and civilization if ‘they’ were in charge. You aren’t protecting the future, you’re shoving yourself into the past.
Sure…and we don’t have home-grown tribalism, we all live in one big happy continent. :rolleyes:
My mistake. I was thinking of the 10% of Judaism (and therefore of the Old Testament). So I guess Islam is stingy in comparison …and in any case, surely a law forcing everyone to donate 2.5% to charity wouldn’t be discriminating against anyone?
Both are capable of irrational bloodthirst. If you want to compare by body-count alone, then fine. I don’t see how that proves much.
If you really believe all that, you’ve swallowed a whole load of prejudices hook line and sinker.
Once again, you’re pretending that Islam is the only religion with fundamentalist literalist devotion to religious texts. Any knowledge of Islamic scholarship and of Sharia would make it clear that questioning and interpreting the Koran is integral to Islam.
I was brought up in the culture native to this continent, so I have might not of fought for my rights, but I can tell you now, in a Muslim dominated Europe, you’re damn sure I’d have to fight for my rights. Besides, we might have done what you’ve described, but two wrongs don’t make a right, where does it say that because my forefathers colonised and built an Empire, that we ‘owe’ it to them to come here and then impose their culture and traditions onto us?
Because they’re a minority! They are going to go for the political party that will guarantee the type of living they desire, and a assured promise that there will be no interference in their beliefs. But the thing is when you get to countries where they come from, they have a more conservative and traditional political background, the fact that they vote liberal doesn’t necessarily translate into being one. They do it to cover their own backs because they know that in any other more right leaning party, they won’t get away with it.
Maybe, but that will be because people won’t don’t have parties or ordinary politicians to go towards, so they will instead rally around more extremist views, because they’re the only ones who say what they like to hear. This is why tip toeing around subjects and not talking about it directly can lead to people going towards extremism itself.
Its not an overgeneralisation, its a fact, sure, there maybe different sects, hundreds of them, but in the end we’re all Christian and share a few common beliefs and laws which are inheirent in our culture, this is why it is easier for them to intergrate, rather than Christian/Islamic.
Yes because that is how you prove I am wrong, you just say it. Sounds like the majority of people here are in denial.
Yes, and which one has made the loudest bang in recent years.
Never knew Islam was a race. I don’t see why I should have to accept the possiblity of a Muslim dominated Europe? Is this so hard to comprehend? Why should I just shut up and put up? It really doesn’t make any sense. I’m proud of my culture and its people, why should I have to wait and see another set of people with a culture that is different and less advanced than ours take up shop?
Nope, but most Christians have learned the error of their ways, can’t say they have.
Don’t act so nieve then.
Yes you don’t have to care about it, even if it does swamp your country, Christian or otherwise. Its that attitude which breeds this in the first place. Yes, I could find a Muslim too who like secularism, Irshad Manji and Salman Rushdie, but they are few and far between. Come on, are you telling me honestly that there isn’t a need for a large scale reform of Islamic thought and teaching?
I am disgusted that you choose to impose your assumptions on others. I’m not Christian, I never have been, and I find many aspects of Christianity repulsive. Yet I share the tolerance and desire for freedom of which we are familiar…golly, how can that possibly be?..Because it has nothing to do with religion.
Can you say that the wider Muslim community on a whole would accept it? I don’t think so.
We’ve gotten to the stage where it isn’t a life or death situation any more.
Muslims don’t pay the tax I don’t think, its only applicable to non believers.
Yes but we’ve seen a decline in Christianity and a decline in the numbers of violence around the world in the name of our faith. How many compared to Islamic terrorism have Christian terrorists committed in this year. What it proves is that we aren’t as expansionist and violent as we previously were.
So Saudis haven’t funded and supported terrorism at all? And there is no sympathy for what Islamists have carried out in the name of God?
The Qu’ran hasn’t been changed like the Bible has, people may interpret it differently, but no one questions the writing in the book. Yes questioning and interpreting maybe it is integral, called Ithijad, but many people do not practise this or follow it correctly. I’m not saying its the only religion with fundamentalist devotion, what I’m saying is though that this is more of a threat than some bible basher in the south at the moment.
I’m not making assumptions about anything, what I’m getting at that its easier for a Pole, or a Frenchman, or a Spanish person or an Italian to get along rather than a Frenchman and Englishman with a Tunisian or Algerian, the same applies to them, the Europeans share common cultural values, so do Muslims with eachother, conflict can derive from improper integration of both sides, this is our governments fault, which are constantly failing to deal with the situation, but seem to allow more in. You may very well be offended and disgusted at what I say, I don’t care, I don’t see any problem in wanting my own culture to not be taken over or sidelined by another. But this doesn’t mean I advocate extreme measures to deal with the situation at this moment. The gun thing was only a worst case scenario option, which I believe has a opportunity to happen.
They could come to accept it. Don’t forget, it was only four decades ago that homosexuality was illegal in Britain. Public attitudes, no matter what the religion, can change very quickly.
Eh? Northern Ireland sectarianism and Basque separatism have been taken over by tree-hugging peaceniks?
Yes, Muslims are expected to pay the money to charity. I don’t know where you get the idea that it’s a ‘tax’, anyway. It’s an obligation within their religion.
No. It proves that we’ve better ways to gain power over others - such as financial coercion.
Well, duh, Bin Laden was Saudi. (note WAS Saudi - until he was stripped of his citizenship…)
??? Unless you mean politically-motivated translations such as the King James version, I don’t know what on earth you mean.
No, you’re saying that you believe it to be the greater threat. Just because you’re afraid, it doesn’t necessarily follow that there’s something to be afraid of.
…and in any case, surely a law forcing everyone to donate 2.5% to charity wouldn’t be discriminating against anyone?