Ummat al-mu’minin.
Nobody is saying that self-identified Christians who don’t believe in the divinity of Jesus are all that representative of the Christian community at large, but just that they exist.
Dio denied this and when presented evidence he decided to hand-wave it away.
Similarly, Walter Isaacson, in his biography of Benjamin Franklin mentions that Franklin always identified himself as Christian and a Deist and that he doubted the divinity of Jesus.
So no, it’s not common amongst Christians, but there are many self-identified Christians who hold such a view.
Ha ha. What does it mean in English?
It hasn’t been shown that anyone who self-identifies as a Christian denies the divinity of Christ, but even if such a person exists, they aren’t Christians, by definition. It doesn’t matter how they self-identify. Their self-identification doesn’t change the definition.
I was shown no evdience for it. I was shown a poll of Canadians, not Christians.
You’re kind of moving the goal posts here. First you said that there are Christians who don’t believe in the divinity of Christ. Now you’re asaying there are “self-identified” Christians who don’t believe in the divinity of Christ. I’ve got ews for you, self-identification doesn’t make you a Christian. Belief in the ddvinity of Christ makes you a Christian. That’s what the word means. If I self-identify as a unicorn, that doesn’t prove that some unicorns are middle aged white guys living in Minnesota.
Well that’s a classic case of the no true Scotsman argument.
No, it’s simply citing a definition.
The point that I’m making is that it’s possible to belong to the United Church of Canada and not identify as a Christian, with zero contradiction. In some communities, it’s a bit like belonging to 4-H.
Technically I’m a member of a local Catholic church. My kids go to the school, My wife and kids go to mass there, and I occasionally go with them. I donate. I’m listed as a member. I’m a stone atheist, though, so belonging to a Christian church doesn’t mean you self-identify as a a Christian.
Eh…
[
](What We Believe | The United Church of Canada)
Now, while some folks may go to the UCC just to hang out, it serves as a pretty good cite that some Christians do indeed lack belief in Christ’s divinity. The default assumption isn’t that when people are active members of a church, that we then have to find out if they self-identify as Christians. At the point where the standard becomes “Sure they go to church and they’re members of a Christian church and they’re active in that Christian church, but have we asked all of them if they self-identify as Christians?”
Well…
Nor is a poll that shows the percentage of UUC members who don’t believe in the divinity of Christ really a poll only of “Canadians”. I’m not surprised that Dio didn’t read past the first sentence in a two sentence quote and has now adopted a position which he refuses to budge from… but seriously, blah. And no it’s not worth another 20 page Pit thread before Dio backs down a bit off his claims and admits that he grabbed on an indefensible overstatement.
Now, nobody claimed that the UUC was representative of all Christians. But if 10-15% of their active members don’t believe that Jesus was divine, that means that there are roughly 30-45 thousand. I’m not sure how you consider something to be ‘not uncommon’, but tens of thousands would do it for me.
And it is a belief that seems to crop up, especially in Christian groups that are in societies which are becoming increasingly secular. Now we can No-True-Scotsman until our fingers fall off, and demand that every person active in a particular Church first self-identify before we can talk about them, but, meh.
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](http://www.gazette.com/articles/christianity-107816-return-revival.html)
Yes, some Christians disbelieve in the divinity of Jesus. I suppose it’s up to Christians to police their numbers and/or purge those who don’t hold the correct beliefs. But from the outside, people who go to Christian churches sure seem Christian.
No they don’t, and can’t. The second they stop believeing that, they stop being Christians. Just because they go to a Christisn church doesn’t mean they self-identify as Christians, and even if they were to to self-identify as Christian, they still wouldn’t be Christians because the word by definition denotes a belief in the divinity of Christ.
So to sum up Dio’s arguments, “No Christians disbelieve in the divinity of Jesus, because those that disbelieve in the divinity of Jesus aren’t Christian”.
A fairly classic example of the No True Scotsman falacy.
I have to say if Dio had been born elsewhere he’d have made a fantastic Ayatollah. He certainly loves to split hairs like one.
No, actually, it isn’t. You’re citing a fallacy fallaciously.
Jake, China Town, yadda yadda.
What do you guys think the definition of “Christian” is?
Apparently, some believe that it is possible to be some sort of “atheist Christian”, which sounds kind of hinky to me.
If I’m generous about it, I suppose it’s possible to believe that Jesus is the Messiah in the Jewish sense, or some other non-divine sense. That would at least be theistic, I guess.
Somebody who’s a member of a Christian church, or someone who identifies himself as a Christian.
You Can’t define a word by repeating the word. “Identifies as a Christian” is just begging the question, and simply being a member of a church is patently incorrect. As I said before, I am a member of a Christian church. Am I a Christian?
Like I said, Christians are certainly welcome to police their ranks and purge whoever they don’t like claiming to be Christians. That’s all well and good. But from the outside, people who are active in Christian churches would seem to be Christian, even if their teachings are only that they should follow the teachings of Jesus and not that he was supernatural.
Being active in a Christian church is not the definition of being a Christian. A lot of churches don’t require or necessarily care if their members are Christian, by the way. Atheist membership - even sometimes fairly active membership in Christian churches is more common than you may be aware. Once again, I am a member of a Christian church, and nobody who knows anything about me would call me a Christian.