What's the real reason behind the Greek rioters?

Great Debates
81

Kinda like a marriage, isn’t it? Sometimes, people separate over money, sometimes its the glue that keeps them stuck together.

Like a lot of other interested people, I kept an eye on this as Europe stumbled towards this arrangement. I think, over all, it was a good idea and still is. Germany married Greece, Greece married Italy, and so forth. They are in a real shitty situation, but undoing the union would, in my semi-humble opinion, ultimately do more harm than good, even to Germany.

Reactionary type capitalists have a blind spot, for all their vaunted hard headed realism. You can see it here as well as there, they cannot seem to internalize the truth that in a consumer economy, if the consumer doesn’t have any money, you have no economy. Hence, you need to put a lot of your profit back into the people you took it from to begin with.

We most likely cannot afford a class of very wealthy people, especially not at the expense of the rest. If they cannot see the need for this, they end up eating their seed corn. If this means subsidizing the lazy and shiftless, so what? Is this a moral issue? Why should we think that the lazy, shiftless and poor are less entitled than the lazy and rich? Because their grandfather was a rabidly greedy asshole? That’s the sort of behavior a sensible and humane society encourages?

Greece is a basket case, and is likely to remain so, because they have almost nothing to sell but olives, culture, and willing hands. And damned near everybody has willing hands.

About the worst possible outcome is a rebirth of dat ol’ debbil, nationalism. Cooperation is not always easy, and often its demands are counter-intuitive, they don’t make sense in that they don’t offer tangible and immediate rewards. I think that ultimately, cooperation is more efficient that competition.

82

[QUOTE=elucidator]
Reactionary type capitalists have a blind spot, for all their vaunted hard headed realism. You can see it here as well as there, they cannot seem to internalize the truth that in a consumer economy, if the consumer doesn’t have any money, you have no economy. Hence, you need to put a lot of your profit back into the people you took it from to begin with.
[/QUOTE]

Wait…so, in the context of this discussion, what should those ‘reactionary type capitalists’ do, exactly?

So, if there aren’t any wealthy people, who is going to loan countries like Greece the money they need to leverage their system? Seriously, cutting through all of the class warfare BS and rhetoric here, how would all of this work if there weren’t any rich people to loan countries like Greece the money they need?? Let’s pretend for a moment that the Good Workers and Peasants (from other countries) did so. Are you going to ask them to take a ‘hair cut’ in the same manner that those rich bastards that loaned money to Greece were asked to do?

And huge amounts of debt compared to their potential to earn money. So, what do you propose here? That instead of the large ‘hair cut’ investors were forced to take that instead…? All debts be forgiven? Something else?

Well, there is something we can agree on there. Of course, most sane people agree that each country going it’s separate way in the EZ would be a Bad Idea™, and probably lead to some fairly apocalyptic outcomes, not just for the Europeans but world wide. Which is why they are trying all this stuff.

-XT

83

“Hence, you need to put a lot of your profit back into the people you took it from to begin with.” They need to realize that profit is socially expensive.

Who says that only rich people can loan money? Is it Written? Working class people loan money all the time, through savings and loans, through pension funds, all sorts of ways. Must have missed your point here, because that can’t be it.

Steady. Want to play nice, I’m cool with that, want to get all down and nasty, well, I’m your huckleberry. Your call.

84

Yes but you haven’t really answered the question in any precise way.

85

[QUOTE=elucidator]
“Hence, you need to put a lot of your profit back into the people you took it from to begin with.” They need to realize that profit is socially expensive.
[/QUOTE]

They took a huge hit…a ‘hair cut’, to put it prosaically and I suppose lessen the pain. So, I ask again…what should they have done? Or, perhaps the right question is ‘what MORE should they have done?’. I’m asking you to be specific here if you would.

So, it’s your contention that working class people loan money to nation states such as Greece all the time? On the same level? That’s news to me. Do you perhaps have a cite that this is the case? The only thing I can think of on par would be the working class folks of Germany (et al) who have been asked to pony up some big bucks to bail out the hard toiling workers and peasants in Greece…and, even there, it’s mainly the richer sorts who are putting up the lions share of the buckage. That’s simply my impression, however, so could be wrong…feel free to fight my ignorance here.

We can do it hard or soft, 'luci. But if you are going to go off in those sorts of paroxysms of rhetorically bullshit then I’m going to call it like I see it. If you want to have a serious discussion then leave all the faux-60’s class warfare stuff at the door, if you don’t mind. Seriously…‘we most likely cannot afford a class of very wealthy people’? :stuck_out_tongue: What are we, in a college dorm room passing along a doobie or something? I feel like I’m in some sort of time warp here. Do you really believe the stuff you are saying in that paragraph I quoted there? Really? And do you really think it applies to the situation going on in Greece? Please, please PLEASE tell me that this was just some of your usual rhetorical judo.

-XT

86

The EU and the Eurozone are both more of an advantage to the smaller, poorer countries like Greece, than to the larger countries. The larger ones could do just as well without Greece, Portugal, Ireland, and the like. It’s possible, though I think unlikely, that in the very long run, Greece could be better off outside the Union, but not after going through a lot of short term problems, worse than what they are seeing now. The riots would almost certainly be even worse due to currency devaluation and skyrocketing interest rates. If they had a lot to export, they could rely on lower export prices. Tourism might become more attractive, but not if the streets are on fire.

Not to mention the psychological effect of being kicked out of the big leagues. It’s neighbors to the east, starting with Turkey are not all that keen on doing business with Greece and vice versa.

Looking at the choices that Greece has, all of which offer pain, I think overall they are better off inside than outside the Eurozone. Suck it up and be glad you have some senior partners that can help prop you up during tough times.

87

See your problem. I am speaking in a larger sense of how our society might better function, it is not aimed as the miracle cure for Greece’s ills. Perhaps as a preventative.

No, no it isn’t. That one was easy. But working people put their money in banks, no? And in pension funds. Do these institution not invest? Do they not buy bonds? You seem to be suggesting that most of the money in banks is the personal property of the rich folks. Which would seem to run counter to the narrative you wish to present.

Don’t make promises you can’t keep, partner.

No, I most certainly will not. And if you don’t like it, you don’t have to read it, and if you can prove its all crap, do so. And if, as you say, its all just "class warfare rhetoric, well, then, lucky you, its simple. You’ll have no problem, the task is a good fit with the tools at hand.

What good are they? Why do we need them? Are they wise, noble? I need a doctor if I’m sick, a teacher to educate my kids, a truckdriver to bring me my shit and a garbage collector to take it away. What does a rich guy do for me?

88

[QUOTE=elucidator]
See your problem. I am speaking in a larger sense of how our society might better function, it is not aimed as the miracle cure for Greece’s ills. Perhaps as a preventative.
[/QUOTE]

How would it function? Can you give some specifics?

They do all of those things, but where does the money come from? How do those working people GET their money? Is it magic? Does it grow on trees? Where do these ‘banks’ come from? How do they operate? How are they funded?

How does this run counter to the narrative I wish to present, a.k.a. ‘reality’?

:stuck_out_tongue: I never do my friend.

Prove what? That you are resorting, once again, to flowery language and rhetorical BS? I’d say the proof is right there. If you want to continue down that line then that’s fine by me. As I said, don’t be shocked when I point it out.

Well, do you like roads, bridges, social programs and those jobs thingies, as well as the myriad other things that allow our society (as in western civilization) to function and flourish with the highest standard of living in history? Working class people, pretty much by definition, WORK…which means they have JOBS. You know, those things that pay a salary? They get a paid for their labor and then, perhaps, buy stuff or put some of it away at one of those ‘bank’ things (or into one of those 401K or IRA things)? They borrow money for those domiciles that they often are seen living in? They use the same credit stuff to purchase personal transportation?

To use your own examples there, where did the doctor get the money for their education from? Where did the money come from to build the school? Who does the truck driver work for to bring you shit, and who built the company to pick up your trash? Where did the money come from to build the manufacturing plants to build the stuff you threw away? Who provided the capital for the farmer to purchase all those fancy machines they use to grow and harvest the food you eat? Who provided the capital to build the store you bought that food in? Who provided the capital to fund the company that built the computer you are using to post to this thread on? Did it all just materialize from thin air? Did the good workers and peasants fund it all? Who loaned the majority of the money to Greece to fund their government and keep them afloat? Who is bailing them out now…where is that money coming from?

I get that you don’t like rich people and think they are a waste. I really do. But do you deny that it’s capital that funds all of that stuff? I mean we aren’t talking about where the sliding scale for the tax rate should be here…this is a pretty basic and fundamental concept. Where does the money come from, 'luci? Not in your fantasy world of the future, I mean right now…the way the world is right this minute? Can you give me a straight, non-bullshit and non-rhetorically class-warfare-y answer to this question? Just a straight up answer without trying to be clever or witty and at the same time be evasive, as is your usual modus operandi?

-XT

89

The Greek government doesn’t get a pass.

However, either the people loaning them money should have known this and need to be fired or they loaned it anyway betting other nations would pick up the tab to save the Euro and should be fired.

Either way, how many international loan bank managers have been fired so far?

90

[QUOTE=Sitnam]
However, either the people loaning them money should have known this and need to be fired or they loaned it anyway betting other nations would pick up the tab to save the Euro and should be fired.
[/QUOTE]

How would they have known it? My own, perhaps flawed understanding of how this played out is that the Greek government downplayed the evidence that they were in trouble as deep as it turned out they were in. Greece is a member of the EU and EZ for the gods sake…you’d think that they would be a good bet for loans, at least until recently.

No idea. Do you know? How many government officials have been sent to jail with serious prison times? I don’t know that either, but my WAG is more managers were fired than government officials sent up the river.

-XT

91

Why? What power did the EU and EZ have over spending in Greece?

WAG noted, I’ll wait for your cite German and French bank managers have been fired at all…

92

Don’t know how to google this, so I’ll just ask. And this is not a rhetorical device, bait for a gotcha-ya, but a straight question. What were Greece’s bonds rated at over the relevant time frame? As good or better than the financial nitro-glycerin that blew us sky high?

93

Also, heard a hint in passing about American investment firms, esp. Goldman Sachs. Google Goldman Sachs and Greece, vomitus giganticus, only skimmed a couple that utterly contradict each other in every respect.

Anybody got the TL:DR on that? Or a source for it.

94

A rich guy probably introduced the OS on your computer (Gates). Two rich guys allow you to efficiently search the web (Brin and Page). A rich guy likely helps you keep in touch with your friends (Zuckerberg). You probably listen to music created by rich buys (Bono, say). A rich guy helped devise a way to get your shit to you faster and cheaper (Malcom McLean). Rich guys are often extremely useful. That’s why they’re rich.

95

Bill Gates got married, and through the healing power of nookie, has turned out to be quite a respectable human being. I have nothing but admiration and kudos for his funding for eradicating malaria, if he succeeds, it will be an achievement for the ages, hands down. His OS, well, yeah, sure, I guess.

But its the money that is doing the good. Bill Gates isn’t taking blood samples in the Congo, he’s not mounting slides in his lab.

And what about creeps like the Koch Brothers, may the Goddess shrivel their peckers like a worm on a griddle. Who wield a thousand, ten thousand times the political power that you or I do? Is the principle of private property so sacred that it trumps egalitarian democracy? Seems to, don’t it?

But all of this is neither here nor there, the question before us is more about whether or not the Greek people have legitimate grievances, that they may assemble and demand redress. I hear quite a bit of high-tone judgement, that they are all just a bunch of spoiled whiners, softened by the welfare state. Austerity is good for poor people, it helps keep them mindful of their insignificance.

Well, OK, says who? I understand Newt Gangrene has done an exhaustive study of the Greek question, even on site! Is it entirely out of the question that these people have a legitimate beef? Seems to be a lot of that going around, bunches of spoiled whiners, with outlandish clothes, hair and opinions. Why, we even have some of that right here in River City!

And if you want to sneer at it and grouse about “class warfare”, you want to adopt Republican Party platitudes and pretend that they represent seriously intelligent positions, you have every right to do so. But hell, you gonna do that, you might as well dust off your old Bob Hope tapes and start telling bath-job-haircut jokes.

96

As far as I know Goldman Sachs was hired by the Greek government to make their debt look smaller. I watched a documentary with (former) GS employees about how all this went down, but I must say i can’t really reproduce the tricks they used. Apparantly this are fairly standard tricks with derivatives and what not.

97

Goldman Sachs helped Greece fiddle the books

98

[QUOTE=Sitnam]
WAG noted, I’ll wait for your cite German and French bank managers have been fired at all…
[/QUOTE]

So, you want me to give you a cite for my WAG? Well, ok. Here are 4:

It implies that there were more, but this was simply the first bit of google vomit that popped up using ‘bankers fired Greece’. So, how many public officials do you have in jail? I showed you mine. :wink:

-XT

99

I think the primary demand of the Greek rioters is that they want the austerity to hit the wealthy more, which isn’t entirely unreasonable since they were the ones not paying their taxes and making out like bandits in the good times.

I would expect that most Greek people (though perhaps not the rioters - I would guess that rioting is a fairly good indication of poor education) realise that they don’t have any choice. Either they do whatever their new masters in Germany tell them or they will default and the outcome will make the current austerity measures look a golden age.

It probably doesn’t help that, as others have pointed out, the bailouts have been less about saving Greece than helping the banks of other members and buying time to sort things out (time that seems to have been completely wasted unfortunately). I suspect that the member states were hoping the world economy would improve if they kept Greece afloat for long enough but currently the Greek (and wider European crisis) are one of the things dragging the rest of the world down so that’s not going to work.

Personally I think that a Greek default is inevitable at this stage. They aren’t going to be able to change their economy and government quickly enough to stave it off and the bailouts will eventually dry up. And then there is the question of what happens at the next general election, I pretty sure they won’t be electing the current pols again.

100

I don’t think that is true. The rioters were a small fragment of a huge protest. One of the defining aspects of this protest is that the formerly weel-heeled middle classes are right out there protesting.

Link

Everyone is being smashed by this ‘austerity’. And I think they suspect that all his suffering is for naught. It just destroys the economy further and puts it in a downward spiral of smaller economy, greater debt, more bailouts, more austerity. They think Greece is in a vicious self-perpetuating downward spiral purely for the benefit of the banks and the only way out is to default and start again.

And maybe they are right. Maybe it will force Greece to face up to their ingrained tax evasion culture etc.

Austerity within the euro is not for the benefit of the Greek people, it is for ‘Europe’. If I were Greek I’d probably rather gamble on defaulting as at least there is a chance things could work out.

I also confidently expect a military coup after the next elections result in the current political elite being thrown out.