What's up with Mysticism?

[Polerius]

Wikipedia describes Mysticism as:
“meditation, prayer, or theology focused on the direct experience of union with divinity, God, or Ultimate Reality; or the belief that such experience is a genuine and important source of knowledge”

It seems that throughout history and throughout the world there have been mystics, and most major religions have mystical traditions, from the ancient Greeks, to Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Budhism, etc

Even Plato, with his allegory of the cave gave an indication that it was possible to experience “the real world”, or the Ultimate Reality.

Is it possible that all these people were wrong?

I guess it is possible that people do have mystical experiences but they are just hallucinations, and not real insights into the nature of Ultimate Reality.

But if it were a hallucination, it would be amazing for this tradition to last through so many millenia and in so many countries and in so many religions. And people like Plato are not crackpots or idiots.

So, what’s the deal? Mystical experiences: insights into Ultimate Reality or hallucinations?

[rfgdxm]

Is it possible that all these people were wrong?

yes.

[rfgdxm]

Added: Plato surely was thinking theoretically.

[Polerius]

@rfgdxm

Added: Plato surely was thinking theoretically.

How do you know that?

His cave allegory seems pretty convincing that he had a mystical experience.

[Hoodoo_Ulove]

@Polerius

So, what’s the deal? Mystical experiences: insights into Ultimate Reality or hallucinations?

Fallacy of excluded middle

[Polerius]

@Hoodoo Ulove

Fallacy of excluded middle

So, what’s the excluded middle in this case?

[Hoodoo_Ulove]

@Polerius

So, what’s the excluded middle in this case?

V.S Ramachandran, in one of SentientMeat’s favorite cites, observes

… what may have happened to the TLE patients is that because of the repeated epileptic seizures, some of these neural connections may have become spuriously strengthened, due to the repeated firing along these pathways. This is known as ‘kindling.’ The amygdala is the most kindling-prone organ in the brain. Thus, all these pathways are strengthened, and instead of just reacting to salient things, saying, ‘My God, that’s a lion! My God, that’s my mom!’ you say, ‘My God, that’s an umbrella! My God, that’s a table!’ Everything becomes deeply significant and salient. And that’s just what the [TLE] patients say: ‘Everything is so significant, doctor.’ They see the universe in a grain of sand, hold infinity in the palm of their hand, as the poet said."

This is not a hallucination. It is an emotional response. Now a good argument could be made that the universe, and especially the presence in it of beings able to see it,** is** a really amazing phenomenon, and it’s appropriate to react with awe and wonder. A mystical state, however, is probably not a good place to be when you’re say, driving a car, so it’s normally suppressed.

[Polerius]

@Hoodoo Ulove

This is not a hallucination. It is an emotional response.

I still don’t see how the article you mention explains anything different than what I proposed.

The article mentions that there is a biological basis for the “religious experience”, but the researcher goes out of his way to say that this does not prove the existence or non-existence of God.

So, people are having these experiences, and they could be having them because they are connecting to something real (what I earlier called “insights into Ultimate Reality”), or they could be having them because their brain is simply wired to behave that way (what I earlier called “hallucination”).

And what I mean by hallucination is something like what is described on m-w.com:
1 a : perception of objects with no reality usually arising from disorder of the nervous system or in response to drugs (as LSD) b : the object so perceived
2 : an unfounded or mistaken impression or notion

[Hoodoo_Ulove]

@Polerius

I still don’t see how the article you mention explains anything different than what I proposed.

I agree.

And what I mean by hallucination is something like what is described on m-w.com:
1 a : perception of objects with no reality usually arising from disorder of the nervous system or in response to drugs (as LSD) b : the object so perceived
2 : an unfounded or mistaken impression or notion

And what I said was that a mystical experience is neither of those. Why do you say it is?

[Polerius]

@Hoodoo Ulove

I agree.
And what I said was that a mystical experience is neither of those. Why do you say it is?

If I see a red balloon in front of me, it means that my brain has the capability to see red balloons, but we don’t know if there really is a red balloon in front of me at the moment.

If there is a red balloon in front of me when I experience seeing the red balloon, then the experience corresponds to a real object being there.

If there is no red balloon in front of me when I experience seeing the red balloon, then the experience is a hallucination.

What other option is there to describe my experience of seeing a red balloon?

Now, replace “red balloon” with “God”, or “Ultimate Reality”.

[E-Sabbath]

Why do you think you know the red balloon is there or not?

[Hoodoo_Ulove]

Once again, neither I or Ramachandran said that a mystical experience is an apprehension of God. The experience is of awe and wonder. Do you maintain that the universe is not wondrous?

[Polerius]

@Hoodoo Ulove

Once again, neither I or Ramachandran said that a mystical experience is an apprehension of God. The experience is of awe and wonder. Do you maintain that the universe is not wondrous?

From your cite:
"The work focuses on the approximately 25 percent of TLE patients who have intense religious experiences during seizures. “They have an aura, they feel the presence of God, or they make statements that sound religious — not necessarily, ‘I see God,’ but some say, ‘Suddenly the whole universe makes sense to me, I feel enlightened, I see deep meaning in everything,’”

They don’t just feel “awe and wonder”, as you put it, they think that they now understand the whole universe. They see deep meaning in everything.

So, do they understand the universe, or do they just think they understand it?
Is the deep meaning they see in everything correct, or is it false because things don’t really have a deep meaning?

That’s my question.

[Hoodoo_Ulove]

Good questions. Please answer my question first, and we’ll continue tomorrow. it’s my bedtime.

[rfgdxm]

@Polerius

How do you know that?

His cave allegory seems pretty convincing that he had a mystical experience.

You have a valid point.

[Hoodoo_Ulove]

@Polerius

Is the deep meaning they see in everything correct, or is it false because things don’t really have a deep meaning?

Those who know do not say. Those who say do not know.

[Polerius]

@Hoodoo Ulove

Those who know do not say. Those who say do not know.

So it looks like everyone on the SDMB knows, cause no one is saying anything

Actually, I’m quite dissapointed that I haven’t gotten more responses on this. I’ve been quite curious about Mysticism for a while and I wanted to hear if people had any experiences with it, and how they view those experiences, i.e. what do they mean?

[Hoodoo_Ulove]

Polerius, there you go again!

  All who know do not say.
  SDMB members do not say.
  SDMB members know.

What’s the name of this fallacy?

[Polerius]

@Hoodoo Ulove

Polerius, there you go again!

  All who know do not say.
  SDMB members do not say.
  SDMB members know.

What’s the name of this fallacy?

Did you notice the smiley?

[modernhamlet]

@Polerius

I’ve been quite curious about Mysticism for a while and I wanted to hear if people had any experiences with it, and how they view those experiences, i.e. what do they mean?

Sorry for arriving so late.

Not to discredit the earlier conversation, but I’m actually go all the way back to your initial definition and question, then go from there…

meditation, prayer, or theology focused on the direct experience of union with divinity, God, or Ultimate Reality; or *the belief that *such experience is a genuine and important source of knowledge (emphasis mine)…

Mystical experiences: insights into Ultimate Reality or hallucinations?

Ok… fear of sounding like a kook aside, why are these mutually exclusive?

By demanding objective proof of a non-objective reality, you are fundamentally misunderstanding what mysticism means. The mystical experience (some might argue all experience) is subjective. Through it, a person attempts to understand more about their world. Their world. Not yours. It is a tool whereby the mystic shapes their perception of the world… and being that the only reality any of us will ever know is nothing more or less than our own mental construct… shapes the world itself.

I’ll give you an example…

I’ve used Tarot cards before and for me they had meaning because I gave them meaning. I shuffle this deck of cards and “objectively speaking” the cards are randomized. There is no particular meaning in their (unrevealed) order. I then place them face up and in examining them, give meaning to their revealed order. Another person, asking the same question, reading the same “spread”, might understand the cards in a completely different way. Or not at all. That’s their choice.

Any mystical tool, from meditation to hallucinagenic drugs to tarot, is just that… a tool. Your mind uses this tool to change its own reality. These things don’t have power in and of themselves. Hallucinations or Tarot spreads aren’t going to have meaning (i.e. reveal Ultimate Reality) by themselves. The power to understand God /Ultimate Reality/Whatever (or perform magic or see the future or create art that makes the soul laugh/cry/scream) exists exclusively in the human mind.

Or so the theory goes. Your mileage may vary. Especially in this day and age on this particular site…