The Metaphysics of Materialism

I imagine there might be as broad a range of materialists here at Straight Dope as there is of Christians. But we have to start somewhere in a debate over materialism’s metaphysics, and I know of no better place to start than Hobbes. My critiques follow. From The Leviathan, chapter XII, “Of Religion”:

[sup]1[/sup] Hobbes is not the first philosopher (nor the last) to leap from a reasonable premise to an ignorantiam. These are always the moments when a philosopher “gets caught”. A Platonic dialog with Hobbes might have interupted him at this moment to query, “But Thomas, we have yet to establish that natural cogitation either can conceive, apprehend, or comprehend everything that exists or has exhausted all that it is capable of conceiving, apprehending, or comprehending.” In other words, there might be mechanisms other than natural cogitation that can validate an ontology, and there might be ontologies that cannot be validated by natural cogitation. Hobbes has already presumed that supernatural cogitation (or spiritual revelation) must be false because, to his mind at least, it has not been proved true.

[sup]2[/sup] It is always suspicious when a philosopher has failed to state his axioms, but rather forces the reader to presume them when he encounters a sudden assertion. The principle of Audiatur et Altera Pars would suggest that Hobbes ought to have let us know earlier on that he would be dealing with a supernatural as conceived by Aquinas. I’d like to give him the maximum benefit of the doubt, which means I must assume this violation of principle, rather than assume that Hobbes knows that these are metaphorical representations but is presenting them as literal representations. Hobbes says himself in chapter IV, “And therefore in reasoning, a man must take heed of words; which, besides the signification of what we imagine of their nature, have a signification also of the nature, disposition, and interest of the speaker; such as are the names of virtues and vices: for one man calleth wisdom what another calleth fear; and one cruelty what another justice; one prodigality what another magnanimity; and one gravity what another stupidity, etc.” Yet here, he presents just such words to argue against.

[sup]3[/sup] Having already selected the road he intends to walk down, it is necessary that Hobbes stay on that road. But, as you see, he doesn’t. He equivocates. And that is what is so extraordinary about this famous passage. Having already stated unequivocally, particularly in chapter IV, that certain words (e.g., words that describe anything other than material phenomena) are worthless toward cognition, here is Hobbes making a lengthy case against the very entities that such words convey! In other words, how can you prove the nonexistence of something that cannot even be brought into thought? If something is nonsense, then it cannot even be discussed, much less that anything meaningful be established about it. It’s one thing to attempt to prove that earth does not weigh four kilograms, but quite another to attempt to prove that the earth does not weigh fahoza sezitch.

[sup]4[/sup] Hobbes is stuck in a rut about invisible agency. He could not have known this in his time, of course, but there are myriad entities in the universe, quite real, that are not visible. The modern materialist gets around this by allowing visibility by proxy; i.e., if you cannot see a thing with your eyes, then all is acceptable if you can see evidence of the thing with your eyes (or other senses). You might not see radition, for example, but so long as you can hear ticking noises and see needles move on dial faces, then all is well. But this is one great, happy tautology. Whatever will, in accordance with the physical laws of the universe, serve to validate other physical laws of the universe, that thing will testify to the physical laws of the universe.

[sup]5[/sup] More amphiboly. And the essence of materialism’s core fallacy. Encased in the very argument itself is the subsumption that “opinion” is itself something of substance. Once again, Hobbes precurses Hume, having already painted himself into a corner that forces him to use words that express nothing but physically observable phenomena. A man’s opinion cannot be seen. And even the modern materialist faces an insurmountable problem here, since a man’s opinion cannot be seen on LED. The materialist does not have the luxury of validating the existence of opinion — or art, or faith, or beauty — simply based upon a ubiquitous acknowledgment of their existence by the populace, any more than he can accept the existence of God simply because a million people tell him that they have experienced God first hand.

[sup]6[/sup] This is at best a sloppy ignorantiam, or at worst an ignoratio elenchi, or irrelevant conclusion. I am always, for example, hearing students of science trying to describe black holes or strings to me. They are doing the very best they can based on the mathematical models with which they are familiar. The fact that they have not sufficiently conveyed to me an understanding such that I can now turn around and convey that understanding to someone else (i.e., they have not conveyed a concrete understanding) does not mean that black holes do not exist. Were I to follow Hobbes example here, the next time Chronos answers a question in GQ about black holes, I should respond to him, “Since I don’t understand what you’re saying, you leave me with no choice but to decide that black holes are incomprehensible, and that you are unintelligible.”

[sup]7[/sup] At least he gave himself a trap-door for escape.

I suppose my first questions to materialists, in general, that I think might help at least to establish to what degree you are a materialist, would be these:

  1. Do you deny the existence of anything and everything that cannot be (presently) measured (or evidenced by proxy), and if not, what is the metaphysical nature of what you will allow to exist?

  2. Is man’s cognition the only cognition that apprehends reality? Is a monkey’s cognition, or a snail’s cognition invalid?

  3. Given that man might evolve such that his progeny will have an even more powerful brain, will reality then have changed if that creature is able to perceive more than his ancestors?

Hmmmm…

I’m not sure I am a materialist. I’m certainly not as familiar with the “philosophical views” as I probably should be. I looked up “materialism”, and found this:

Materialism: The theory that physical matter is the only reality and that everything, including thought, feeling, mind, and will, can be explained in terms of matter and physical phenomena.

Well, on the surface at least, that seems reasonable. Perhaps in the course of this thread I will find evidence to the contrary.(?)
Let me take a stab at your questions Lib, and see where this goes.

The key word to me in that question is presently. Seeing how far we have progressed in our understanding of the world around us, it would seem the height of arrogance to presume that there is nothing else for us to learn about our reality. Discoveries in the area of quantum physics immediately come to mind as an example of that which we only begin to understand. What else will I “allow” to exist then? I am quite certain that humanity is connected on some level that we do not yet fully understand. I think eventually we will figure that out, most likely with the help of science, and most likely despite the opposition of organized religion.

No, I wouldn’t say invalid, but since monkeys can communicate their cognition only in a limited way, and snails cannot communicate it at all, I am not sure that it matters. It certainly has no bearing on whether or not I should believe in the God of the Bible. :wink:

Reality will not have changed, in the sense that the Earth has, “in reality” always been round, even for the thousands of years that humanity thought it a flat plate held up on the back of an elephant, or a titan, or what have you. But there is a saying that gets used around my office a lot, and while it sometimes annoys the piss out of me, I’ll employ it here: “Perception is reality”. For us, our reality is what we perceive it to be. If at some future date our descendants can perceive more than us, then their reality will be different, just as our “round earth” reality is different from a first century Jew’s flat earth. I make a distinction here between reality as we perceive it, and reality as it truly is.

Does this help?

Looking forward to your response,

MH

Lib - First a quick shot at your questions, we’ll see where that leads.

  1. I don’t deny that we may eventually be able to discover further energies and particles that are not currently detectable. But, we will also be able to discover that they have material sources. I am sure that we do not yet understand fully the relationship of time to matter, but essentially I believe that there always has been the same amount of matter/energy (one being a form of the other) and any energies/particles discovered are just a part of that whole. Anyone claiming to have destroyed energy/matter will be found to have just converted it into currently undetectable particles. So, it’s just always been here. No origins, no metaphysics, no purpose.

  2. Reality? No one apprehends the whole of reality (at least not yet), but anyone or anything that can sense the world around them can sense part of reality. As far as “apprehend” it goes, are you asking me to judge the relative sapience of various creatures? Not sure where you’re going with this.

  3. Reality doesn’t change.
    That there is no God of any sort cannot be proven ever. That there is a God could only be proven with the help of said God. I believe that there is no God, regardless of the fact that I cannot prove it. For me, the fact that I have tried very hard to find this God and failed, combined with the fact that my life improved significantly when I stopped searching, is enough. Having made this discovery, it wasn’t much of a leap to realize that I no longer had any reason to think that there were souls or spirits or anything beyond the material universe.

Later, I found writings on Materialism and realized that they were very close to my self discovered beliefs. I’ve only read excerpts from Hobbes (having discovered him from investigating the sources of the names in “Calvin and Hobbes”), but you chose an excerpt I am familiar with. Your point number 2 is where I lost a chunk of respect for him. He doesn’t seem to have that good of a grasp of the meanings of the words he uses. I get the feeling he has a fairly good grasp of what he would like to say but doesn’t know how to express it properly. I think we’ve all had that experience at some point. I think a discussion with him would have revealed that he has a better understanding of the concepts than is revealed in his writings. This makes his writings only a mediocre source. OTOH, I don’t know of any that are significantly better. I HAVE had discussions with philosopher professors who have managed to do a much better job, but these were not recorded. If this discussion produces something good perhaps I will ask your permission to print it. I am in the midst of writing a book currently called Ethics for Atheists and Agnostics. Don’t know if it’ll ever get published or even finished, but I’m sure going to try.

Lib., a worthy thread. I expect to read but rarely participate – only asking for clarification from time to time. Vile Orb, I look forward to seeing that book, and would be grateful if you kept us posted, with perhaps excerpts (retaining copyright, of course) as they’re prepared. (This might provide you with useful first-reader service, for tightening up and clarifying areas that may need such work, if any should exist.)

Lib., a worthy thread. I expect to read but rarely participate – only asking for clarification from time to time. Vile Orb, I look forward to seeing that book, and would be grateful if you kept us posted, with perhaps excerpts (retaining copyright, of course) as they’re prepared. (This might provide you with useful first-reader service, for tightening up and clarifying areas that may need such work, if any should exist.)

One useful distinction I tend to make – I always capitalize philosophical Materialism, to distinguish it from the common-usage pejorative of “he whose life is devoted to accruing the most toys.”

My first criteria is the measurement; however, realizing that our “rulers” improve over time I cannot say that I disbelieve everything which I cannot measure. This isn’t, of course, a free lisence either. After it has been determined that a ruler does not exist, I then ask if it is plausible that a ruler could exist. If the answer is no, then I would probably be inclined to think such a thing does not exist. For, after all, if I can neither sense it nor mentally encompass it then its existence probably doesn’t really matter to me.

If we accept that our understanding of reality is valid, then our understanding of snails must also be valid. If we accept that our understanding of reality is limited, then we may or may not know about snails. As such, this question is simply a subset of (1).

Perceived reality will have changed; not much more can be said.

I am not sure I understand your apprehension (if I am sensing it correctly) about “real reality” versus “perceived reality.” How can you experience one without it being a subset of the other? Perhaps that construct itself (which would allow you to do that) is what makes your musings about materialism fleshed out.

Lib I’m not sure I’m a materialist, either, although I once told you that I thought materialism was the metaphysic of liberalism (as opposed to Politics, which you had offered). But I’ll try out your questions, though.

1. Do you deny the existence of anything and everything that cannot be (presently) measured (or evidenced by proxy), and if not, what is the metaphysical nature of what you will allow to exist?
I don’t deny anything’s existence. However, I frequently deny that sufficient reason exists for me to act as if something for which I have no evidence (by proxy or otherwise) exists. IOW, without a measurement or other evidence, it would take rigorous persuasion for me to change my habits of thought or action on account of a theorized “something”. I may entertain the idea of that “something”, and I may even agree that it is no less likely a “something” than any other theorized thing, but unless I find the theory or the thing sufficiently compelling, I’ll not change because of it.

(BTW, there are several unprovable “somethings” I believe in right now. One of them is absolute goodness.)

2. Is man’s cognition the only cognition that apprehends reality? Is a monkey’s cognition, or a snail’s cognition invalid?
I’m not sure what usage of “apprehend” you intend. If you mean simply “perceive”, then no and no. If you mean “perceive with understanding”, then I don’t know about the snail, but I’m pretty sure a chimpanzee can do that. If you mean “fully perceive and understand”, I don’t think there’s evidence to support the proposition that humans apprehend reality, much less creatures with whom our communication is necessarily limited.

3. Given that man might evolve such that his progeny will have an even more powerful brain, will reality then have changed if that creature is able to perceive more than his ancestors?

What erislover said. (Hi erl! :slight_smile: )

Hmm… I think my position would be more that I do not accept some sort of “outside” influence - in other words, completely undetectable by any sort of instrumentation whatsoever - as an explanation for the cause of a material phenomenon. In short, objects and events that are detectable are caused or created by other objects and/or forces that are themselves detectable, whether or not we have the means to detect them at present.

Reality existed long before mankind evolved cognition, or even evolved, period. Life in all its forms apprehends reality, but the level of development of life necessarily limits the way reality is apprehended.

Reality will not have changed - it will be better understood. Take flying, for example. Modern man has markedly superior brain power in comparison with, say, Homo erectus, and we have the mental power to comprehend the physical laws behind flight and build machines that can exploit those laws to fly. But those laws didn’t suddenly come into being the moment the Wright brothers started building mock-ups in Dayton, which would mean reality itself had changed. Birds have been flying since well before the time of H. erectus using the same physical laws we now do.

I wanted to give Gaudere time to check in here, but I must say, from the looks of things, she’ll be able to pick right up. I’m pretty astonished at the similarity of views. Unless something is whooshing me, the gist of it seems to be that there is an objective reality and existence, but that it might not yet be (and likely isn’t yet) comprehended or apprehended by man (or any other beast) at least not completely.

If that is the case, then I fail to discern any substantive difference between materialism and mysticism. The Materialist (better Poly?) will declare that there are quite likely aspects of reality that he cannot and might never sense. What does the Mysticist say that is any different from this?

Yes, I know that the Materialist insists on being shown that something is real, but this seems like a trivial matter of discovery. Hasn’t the Mysticist also discovered a reality? You might not like the instrument he uses to measure his reality, but you’ve already conceded that there is potential that his instrument might someday be deemed as a valid one.

And yes, I know that you won’t deem it valid until it has a physical explanation, but that just means you’re busy with codifying what someone else has already discovered. It’s like they’re the physicists and you’re the engineers.

Someone help me out here. This wasn’t at all what I expected.

I think the key difference would be that mystics would allow their unproven suppositions be used for further suppositions, while materialists would say “Sure, ghosts could exist, but because we can’t tell we can’t use their hypothesized existence to derive any more consequences.”

For materialists, unproven assertations should not be used as a method of forming new hypothesis without a possibly unhealthy degree of skepticism, unless those unproven assertations themselves could lead to a testable hypothesis (as in, say, quantum chromodynamics).

The O.P. presents the question of worldviews. The question involves the whole range of philosophical inquiry from epistemology through metaethics (although naturally we don’t have the room to expand on any of them in much detail). But even in a casual forum such as this, we must not neglect the important requirements and logical consequences that flow directly from the worldview of materialism.

I should say at the outset that I am most emphatically a philosophical materialist.

The O.P.'s quotation of Hobbes, while interesting, unnecessarily complicates the issue, it seems to me, due to that author’s grandiloquent manner of speech. I will try to be much more direct.

Materialism is most of all the assertion that the primary constituents of reality are material entities. It is the view that anything that is real is finally explicable as either a material entity or as a form or function or action of a material entity. Materialism also posits that everything that happens in the universe is theoretically explicable without any recourse to any non-empirical or non-material reality as described above.

Libertarian asked us how materialism differs from mysticism. I believe the preceding paragraph leaves no room whatever for mysticism or metaphysics.

Many logical and philosophical consequences follow from a materialist worldview:

The first and arguably most important is that all materialists much be strict empiricists. In other words, no synthetic a priori knowledge is possible. In other, other words, we can know nothing at all about the real world that is not obtained through primary or secondary sensory experience. One consequence of this is that no knowledge of God or the transcendent or the supernatural is within mortal reach. (Knowledge, according to the brief philosophical definition, is “justified, true belief”.)

Another important consequence is that materialism implies either hard or soft determinism. Philosophical libertarianism must be rejected by all materialists. Traditional free will (in a non-trivial sense) is completely contradictory to this worldview.

It is also quite arguable that materialists must also reject political views such as Natural Law and Social Contract theories. (I won’t get into this debate, however).

Then there is the mind/body problem. A materialist holds the view known as identity materialism which insists that “mind” is just another word for a part or function of the body, as Nietzsche’s Zarathustra taught. Any type of dualism or panpsychism is absolutely incompatible with materialism.

There are also consequences for ethical and metaethical views (which should be fairly obvious).

The last consequence I’ll mention is that materialism requires a rejection of the ontological view known as direct realism, which is the view that the physical world is exactly as it is perceived. This is because it is known empirically that our perceptions can be inaccurate (e.g., the appearance of solidity is something of an illusion, as matter is largely empty space. Our perception of solidity is a consequence of the electroweak force).


Finally, let me address Libertarian’s questions three (which are all implicitly answered by the preceding):

**1) ** Nothing is real except for that which is finally explicable as either a material entity or as a form or function or action of a material entity.

**2) ** Cognition is utterly irrelevant. The universe would be precisely the same without it.

**3) ** See question 2.
I would be delighted to elaborate further if you like…

Ambushed,

Wonderful! You’ve left positively no doubt as to where you stand. I think we can begin the debate. And I think I’d like to begin here, the same place I always begin with a Materialist:

Explicable by what or whom, and why is the what or whom that you select both significant and nonarbitrary?

Explicable by what or whom, you ask?

How can it matter? Your question seems to me to be a bit of syllogistic smuggling, if you follow my meaning. As I said, the universe would be just the same even without any explication at all.

(I should advise you that I am very soon to be off…)

But you have tied the whole premise of reality to explication. And now there is a contradiction: what is real is what is explicable, yet what is real is still real even if it is inexplicable. If you assign an ability, you must identify the capable agent.

Whether you choose to defend your position is up to you. You may take it up (or not) any time you like.

With genuine respect, you are making a fallacious argument. You are setting up and attacking a straw man based on nothing more substantive than my mere choice of words.

I would hope we might refrain from futile verbal disputes.

Yet, since you insist that I dance with language rather than substance, allow me to revise my statement to read: Nothing is real except for material entities or forms or functions or action of a material entity.

Perhaps we can move on to substantive issues…

By the way, your comment: “And now there is a contradiction: what is real is what is explicable, yet what is real is still real even if it is inexplicable.” is manifestly fallacious. To be honest, you should have dropped the bit about a contradiction and instead written: “what is real is what is explicable, yet what is real is still real even if it is not explicated.”

Oh, criminey. I had hoped for a debate. Instead, I encounter someone who blames me for his explication about explication. I did not choose your words for you, sir or madam.

I’ll give this one more go:

Explaining how we know what is real — and therefore, I suppose, what exactly a material entity is — you also said:

My question: the primary or secondary sensory experience of what or whom, and why is the what or whom that you select both significant and nonarbitrary?

I’d reflect, Ambushed, that it is trivially easy to disprove that viewpoint – that the Universe can quickly be shown to contain something which is not “a material entity” – energy. And, according to a theory advanced in 1905 and proven quite ably in the mid-1940’s, matter can be destroyed (not merely transformed or atomized) by being converted to energy. (The reverse holds true.)

A question: What if particles of some sort not corresponding to our understanding of matter or energy were to exist, and to have an interface with energy, say by the manipulation of photons or neutrinos. Assume further that such particles cannot be identified by current laboratory equipment. And that such particles are found to move from future to past, with the potential of giving “prophetic” knowledge.

Now, the question is, am I talking about something mystical? Or of Feinbergian tachyons, a legitimate construct of theoretical physics?

And is there any objective differentiation between the two questions?

**

I don’t deny the possibility that some things may exist which are currently unknown to human beings. Atoms existed long before human beings were capable of measuring them.

**

I’d say man’s cognition is the most capable at apprehending reality on this here planet.

The nature of reality cannot change. Atoms existed long before man figured out they were there. If we find something new it won’t exist simply because we thought of it.

Marc